safest way to make right turn, busy dual carriageway

[oilyormo]

hi all, looking for advice.

on my commute i have to make 2 right turns on busy dual carriageways. both are controlled by lights and both have right turn filter lanes

therefore on the approach i have to cross two busy lanes of traffic to get in the right hand lane.

at pressent i ride to the lights and wait for them to change to red thereby stopping traffic and allowing me to cross the two lanes to get in my right turn lane safely.

is this the best way? it doesnt feel very profficient. wondering how others tackle this situation

 

[Ian Cooper]

I just signal, shoulder-check, merge before the turn, like any other road user. If motorists know I'm changing lanes, they slow and let me in. Just give yourself plenty of room to get in the correct lane and you should be fine.

 

[sabian92]

Several shoulder checks, indicate, another check, indicate and when it's safe, move over. Some drivers are total morons and will just blast past you but as long as you do it early enough, it's fine. You may get some tossers undertaking you if you cling to the right hand side of the road so try keep primary within the lane.

Can you show us on google maps, out of interest?

 

[Hawk]

"Cyclecraft" is a great book for this sort of stuff.

I wouldn't necessarily ride across after the lights are red but there's nothing wrong with getting off and pushing

You can negotiate with drivers behind you in the next lane across by making eye contact and using a strong signal. As long as it's not a 70mph dual carriageway then you should get lucky and have someone let you in.

Keep a high level of awareness of what's behind you and look for gaps in the next lane across. A gap suggests the next driver behind is a bit more patient.

If it's a fast dual carriageway, you are going to hold up a car slightly. You are allowed to do that.

Treat each lane change seperately, just as you would in a car. Once you move lane once, start over - look behind in the next lane and look for your next move. Now all you need is a safe gap to turn across in to the filter lane (so are unlikely to force anyone to slam on the brakes).

Move well in advance, your first shoulder check for this manoeuvre is likely to be about 100-200m before the turn. Once you've read what's behind you, you can start planning your route across. Constant shoulder checks will keep you in check of vehicle's speeds. Keep an eye of what's in front of you as well.

Lots to do!

It does get easier :-)

 

[Norm]

Very dependent on the circumstances. There's a couple that I use regularly that I'd follow sabian's post but there's also at least one urban race-track that I'd often wait for the lights to change as you do currently, Olly.

 

[oilyormo]

here's the junction
bear in mind im approaching curbside and need to filter to the outside to turn right.

when lights are green traffic is flowing between 40 - 60 mph. i dont feel safe filtering across the lanes at all.

 

[Ian Cooper]

I'm not seeing the images. What are the roads in question?

Anyway, it's really not that scary once you've done it a few times. You'll find you have a lot more control over traffic than you think. Most motorists are scared to death of hitting cyclists, so if you even hint that you're changing lanes by moving right in your lane, shoulder-checking and signalling, 70% of drivers will slow down and let you in.

 

[oilyormo]

wow ian you make it sound easy. when traffics light and with a burst of pace i sometimes have the bottle to cross the 2 lanes but if traffic is busy it scares me to hell and i end up stopping. can you reccomend a distance to start manouvering from one lane to the next. i dont think a sudden dash across 2 lanes would be wise. yet i feel very self concious about holding up cars as i make my way across the two lanes.

as was said about circumstances differing, if the lights are red on approach traffic is slowing, if green all traffic is flowing at high speed in order to beat 'em. very frightening to start crossing two lanes.

i do shoulder check but if i dont see a suitable gap i end up just stopping at lights. not tried signalling, would be interested to see the result ????

 

[oilyormo]

sorry, new to this. i found if you right click then select view image. ?

 

[Ian Cooper]

wow ian you make it sound easy. when traffics light and with a burst of pace i sometimes have the bottle to cross the 2 lanes but if traffic is busy it scares me to hell and i end up stopping. can you reccomend a distance to start manouvering from one lane to the next. i dont think a sudden dash across 2 lanes would be wise. yet i feel very self concious about holding up cars as i make my way across the two lanes.

I would say give yourself a good two hundred yards so you can take your time. I've crossed three lanes in 70 yards before (here), but that's about the shortest distance I would attempt it in. Try not to worry about holding up traffic. If you're in front, they are legally obligated to give way (they still may not, but they are supposed to). Besides, you're not in their way - you are actually trying to get out of their way. And don't worry if you must do the manoeuvre over a couple of intersections. Just make an effort to look like you know what you're doing, and you will. Motorists respect those who look like they know what they're doing - even if they don't.

 

[oilyormo]

thanks for reply hawk, i see 1 -200 mtrs
will give it a try in morning

strong signal, plenty of shoulder checks? then possibly ambulance ride to casualty?

 

[MrJamie]

https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=wa...nn7WUabjLcAD4jIvoocygQ&cbp=12,299.95,,0,19.46

I think you tried to add the link as an image?

Personally i tend to avoid anything like this and id likely do the same as you, or use the path around the roundabout even though we shouldnt, though most of them ive seen near here are shared use anyway.

 

[Ian Cooper]

I've looked at the images. This is actually a very good situation, though it looks scary because it's so busy at the roundabout. The lanes are very well defined going into the roundabout and the lanes are narrow, which allows you good lane control. Start in primary position in the left lane (be in primary ever since the previous roundabout). What I would do from there is make your manoeuvre into the right hand lane right about here, where the roundabout is just coming into view, and where the road is only two lanes. This gives you the opportunity to make one single lane change and move into a controlling position over cars that are going straight and right. Just shoulder check, signal, shoulder check again and move over if clear. Then just stick to primary position and slowly move into the rightmost half of the rightmost lane and follow it as it splits into two and the bit you're on becomes the right turn lane. Then it's just a matter of sticking with it through the roundabout.

Walk yourself through it using Google Maps. Then you'll have practiced for the real thing. You will be nervous on the day, but the feeling of accomplishment when you negotiate a busy multi-lane intersection like that is pretty fricking cool! You never lose that nervousness completely (nor should you - a little fear keeps you safe), but you come to understand that it's actually quite safe.

Doing it this way (changing before it becomes 3 lanes), you don't need to worry about negotiating two lane changes - it's just one lane change and you're done.

And never worry about holding up traffic on a two lane road - cars can always choose the other lane if they're that desperate to overtake.

 

[Hawk]

sorry, new to this. i found if you right click then select view image. ?

That does work You don't need to put any tags or similar for streetviews, just copy the url as text.

Traffic will be slowing for this roundabout anway. I felt very conscious "holding up" traffic at first but cyclists are just as entitled to be on the road as cars. Drivers need to accept they may be "held up" (though it is extremely rare for this hold up to be significant, especially in the grand scale of things - what does it matter if they get to the back of the next traffic queue 20 seconds later?).

The first thing that would concern a cycle trainer or competent cyclist is that you say you need to cross two lanes of traffic. This suggests that you are riding as far left as you can on this road, and are letting vehicles pass you in the same lane. You are entitled to the entire lane and car drivers should be expected to change lane to give you safe distance, this is what the other lane is for :thumbsup:

But why would you want to ride in, say, the middle of the lane? (Cyclists and motorbikers call this position "primary position" on the road, it is in fact taught on government approved training courses).

Well, you have a safety buffer zone on your left - if someone cuts in or doesn't leave enough room, you've got some space to escape in to.

Further, you become a part of road traffic (and not merely an annoyance at the side of the road) when you ride in the middle of the lane - other road users need to think about how to pass you safely, instead of just blasting by without a thought in the world.

It sounds like you're riding quite far to the left, closer to what we'd call "secondary" position (which is about where a car's left wheels would be, maybe 1-1.5 metres out from the kerb).

On a road like this, I would probably stay in primary in the left lane the whole way along. Easily said by a confident cyclist! It IS absolutely essential on approach to this roundabout to be in primary! Being further out will actually help you get seen earlier and allow motorists to plan ahead and pass you more smoothly too.

I would be looking to "take the lane" (i.e, be in primary) by the time I got to the board with details of the roundabout exits (and definitely before the "general hospital" titled sign).

From here I would look to move to the middle of the right hand traffic lane whenever a suitable gap appears. If you see a gap behind you, wait til the last car is passing and then start to indicate left. See what the next car behind, on the right, does. If it accelerates (this is rare!!) then you have a few more attempts before you hit the lights. Most drivers will keep their speed, in which case (assuming the gap is big enough) you are quite entitled to move across. Sure, don't force an emergency stop from the next car along but the car behind might well have to slow down or change lane to pass you, just like they are expected to change lane to overtake you when you're riding in your new, safer "primary" position along this dual carriageway! :dance:

From there, I'd look to enter the MIDDLE of the filter lane. Definitely avoid riding right against the right hand side kerb, someone might try to undertake in the same lane :ohmy:

When going round the roundabout, stay well away from the outside (kerb/give way lines) as drivers don't look there when they decide to pull out. Again, counter intuitively riding less "out the way" of other traffic actually makes you safer! [not quite so much of a problem on traffic light controlled junctions but still good practice]

It's funny, but by being more "assertive" in this way on the road - i.e strong signals that make you look confident, and use of primary position where appropriate (which is everywhere except where lanes are so wide you can fit your bike and a car in the same lane (that means at least 3 feet from your handlebars to the car mirrors) - by doing this, you command your rightful place on the road as an item of road traffic and get more respect from drivers, a safer distance when they pass, you eliminate the risk of doors opening in to your path and throwing you under the next vehice behind (when passing parked cars), you are much more visible to motorists (both from behind and at junctions) and fewer punctures too :thumbsup:

 

[Ian Cooper]

Also, this road has a 40mph limit - relatively slow for a road like this. That means cars are going by at a maximum of 50mph on the straightaways between traffic lights. Luckily, it seems like there are plenty of lights on that stretch, and drivers have to slow down as they approach the roundabouts anyway. If you're doing a healthy clip, the speed differential should be no more than 30mph at most, more likely much less (especially if it's rush hour).

The other way to approach this intersection would be to just take the rightmost lane right out of the previous roundabout. It's only 600 yards back, so it should only take you a minute or so to reach the next roundabout. Less if it's downhill (can't tell from Google Maps). In rush hour, traffic speeds might be low enough that you'll easily be able to keep up with traffic.

As Hawk says, get into (and stay in) primary on this road. As it's a dual carriageway, you have no real excuse not to. Cars can and will change lanes to overtake you. You should be at least 6ft out from the kerb. If you're not used to it, practice riding in primary on quiet roads first, then use it on dual carriageways like this (where motorists have the option of changing lanes to pass you).