Schengen fun - Airport transit and the 90 days

[roubaixtuesday]

A long tour is in the planning, through France, Italy, the Balkans and ultimately back across Germany to the Hook of Holland.

This requires full use of the 90 days allowed in Schengen.

And to add to the fun, a round trip home for a graduation is necessary in the middle.

In order to avoid burning through the 90 days, the plan is to fly back from a non-EU country, most likely Serbia (Belgrade) or Bosnia (Sarajevo) then return there and continue the tour.

The question is, if that flight goes through eg Schipol or Frankfurt, do you end up accruing extra Schengen days or not? It's not clear to me after having a read around.

If a direct flight is needed it further complicates matters.

Any advice on the real consequence of rocking up at the Hook of Holland a few days late would also be appreciated - not bothered by a fine, but a ban from the EU would be more consequential!

 

[All uphill]

Sounds like a great tour in the planning.

I can't answer any of your questions, but wanted to ask if you are on top of the passport dates thing.

My UK passport was issued in October 2013 and had an expiry date in April 2024. I thought that would cover me for a trip to Belgium this week, but apparently EU countries only have to accept passports for ten years from the date of issue - mine would effectively run put in October 2023, six months before the expiry date printed in the document.

Sorry for the thread diversion.

 

[Alex321]

If it is only a few days, and you are in the process of leaving anyhow, you are unlikely to face any direct penalties. In theory if caught overstaying, you can be fined and can be banned from re-entering for a period of anything from a few months to three years.

But your passport may be flagged up as an overstay, which is likely to result in more stringent checks next time you want to enter.

 

[T4tomo]

remember its 90 days in a cumulative 180 days....

Travelling to countries in the Schengen area for up to 90 days in a 180-day period​

You can travel to more than one country in a 180-day period. How long you can stay in each country depends on whether or not it’s in the Schengen area.

The countries in the Schengen area are:

Austria, Belgium, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland.

Your total stay in the Schengen area must be no more than 90 days in every 180 days. It does not matter how many countries you visit. The 180-day period keeps ‘rolling’.

To work out if your stay is within the 90 day limit, use the following steps.

1. Check the date you plan to leave the Schengen area on your next trip.
2. Count back 180 days from that date to get the start of the 180-day period.
3. Add up the number of days you have already spent in the Schengen area in that 180-day period (you can use the dates stamped in your passport showing when you entered and left a country).
4. Work out how many days you will spend in the Schengen area on your next trip. Add this number to the number of days you worked out in step 3.
5. Check that the total number of days is not more than 90.

The question is, if that flight goes through eg Schipol or Frankfurt, do you end up accruing extra Schengen days or not? It's not clear to me after having a read around.

You don't pass through passport control to change flight so you do not reenter Schengen area is my understanding. On your passport that will be a stamp out of Serbia and stamp into UK.

In any event, AFAIK, you only accrue a day in a country if you stay overnight, many "tax exiles" use this method for "meetings" in London etc flying in and out in a day so they dont get enough days to become tax resident in the UK again.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

If it is only a few days, and you are in the process of leaving anyhow, you are unlikely to face any direct penalties. In theory if caught overstaying, you can be fined and can be banned from re-entering for a period of anything from a few months to three years.

But your passport may be flagged up as an overstay, which is likely to result in more stringent checks next time you want to enter.

Any idea what "stringent checks" means? A mild grilling by immigration is one thing, 24 hours detention quite another!

 

[roubaixtuesday]

Sounds like a great tour in the planning.

I can't answer any of your questions, but wanted to ask if you are on top of the passport dates thing.

My UK passport was issued in October 2013 and had an expiry date in April 2024. I thought that would cover me for a trip to Belgium this week, but apparently EU countries only have to accept passports for ten years from the date of issue - mine would effectively run put in October 2023, six months before the expiry date printed in the document.

Sorry for the thread diversion.

No problem! Passport is good to 2028 I think.

 

[Alex321]

Any idea what "stringent checks" means? A mild grilling by immigration is one thing, 24 hours detention quite another!

I'm pretty sure it just means more of a grilling at immigration. Just being sure you don't look likely to overstay again.

 

[Once a Wheeler]

I would have thought it was better to fly from an EU country to be sure of being stamped out of the EU and so interrupting the day-count on your stay.

You could check up on the possibility of a cunning ruse by travelling through Ireland. Your passport will not be stamped between the UK and Ireland and it may be that passengers getting off the ferries from Ireland in Le Havre or Cherbourg are not routinely checked either. Although not in Schengen, Ireland is in the EU so you might get waved through with no stamp. (Has anyone on here tried this?) If this proved to be the case, you would at least have the first part of your journey free of the 90-day rule and only start clocking up days when you flew back from the mid-tour break where you would pick up the obligatory airport stamps.

Of course, there might be some non-EU Balkan frontiers with equally lax controls — at least for obvious tourists suitably decked out in lycra and gilets jaunes. In that case, you could repeat the Irish gambit and enjoy any length of stay you can afford. When you turn up at the Hook of Holland with blank passports, just tell them you got waved through in Cherbourg a couple of weeks ago and you really admire Max Verstappen. All should then be well. Best of luck, please give feedback in due course.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

I would have thought it was better to fly from an EU country to be sure of being stamped out of the EU and so interrupting the day-count on your stay.

You could check up on the possibility of a cunning ruse by travelling through Ireland. Your passport will not be stamped between the UK and Ireland and it may be that passengers getting off the ferries from Ireland in Le Havre or Cherbourg are not routinely checked either. Although not in Schengen, Ireland is in the EU so you might get waved through with no stamp. (Has anyone on here tried this?) If this proved to be the case, you would at least have the first part of your journey free of the 90-day rule and only start clocking up days when you flew back from the mid-tour break where you would pick up the obligatory airport stamps.

Of course, there might be some non-EU Balkan frontiers with equally lax controls — at least for obvious tourists suitably decked out in lycra and gilets jaunes. In that case, you could repeat the Irish gambit and enjoy any length of stay you can afford. When you turn up at the Hook of Holland with blank passports, just tell them you got waved through in Cherbourg a couple of weeks ago and you really admire Max Verstappen. All should then be well. Best of luck, please give feedback in due course.

Flying from an EU country makes it much worse because we have to make sure we're at an airport the right day, mess around getting to and from airport, arranging bike storage etc etc. It'll add at least 3 days I reckon. Whereas if we fly from non-EU to UK, there's no extra time at all in Schengen, unless they penalise us for transit.

re lax borders, I doubt there is such a thing entering the EU. On leaving EU (Italy to Albania) it's absolutely essential we get an exit stamp otherwise our goose is cooked!

Ireland is an interesting possibility, but not exactly convenient!

 

[T4tomo]

unless they penalise us for transit.

Provided your baggage is checked thru,, i.e. its a single ticket with a plane change as opposed to 2 separate tickets, coming from outside Schengen (e.g. Serbia) to UK (outside Schengen) (and Vice versa) then you will only be in the international transit area at whatever airport, which sits airside of passport control, so you cant be deemed to have gone "into Schengen area". You wont go thru passport control nor have your passport stamped.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

You’ll not leave transit, will stay airside, not go through passport check, and you last stamp leaving the EU into the Balkans will apply. You won’t accrue an extra day.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

This does remind me of years ago, when I was going to max out a 90 day stay in Canada. I told the passport guy this at Vancouver airport, and he said stay a day over and we’ll arrest you. I thought, great welcome to Canada! It all worked out just fine.

 

[HobbesOnTour]

What a great trip to be contemplating!
Just to emphasise the importance of the basics - a passport that is well in date and the reminder it's 90 days out of 180 that are allowed.

Also, I believe* the ETIAS system (The EU equivalent of the US Esta visa waiver program) is due to kick in next year. This means that an official, online log will be kept of comings and goings. It may also mean that a uniform system of enforcement is applied across all countries.

* In these kinds of topics I'd always suggest being wary of random (if well intentioned) advice on the Internet.

As regards enforcement, my understanding is that it varies from country to country. I believe, for example, that Spain has quite relaxed exit controls, probably due to the many tens of thousands who travel to Spain to become Pilgrims every year. Other countries may not be so relaxed. From my own experience, I can't help but draw the conclusion that those that are rude and arrogant in their dealings with officialdom invariably suffer more than the more humble, respectful traveller. A disgruntled inspector can easily hold someone back to the point of missing their flight. No long term implications but a whole host of short term issues.

In any case, violation of the Visa waiver can mean the requirement to apply for a visa in future with knock on effects for other countries.

If you're wondering if transiting through an EU airport will count towards the 90 days I draw the conclusion that your plan is sailing close to the limit? In that case, is there anything to be said for ignoring the 90 days of the Visa waiver and exploring the possibility of an actual visa? Or supplementing the visa waiver with selected visas?

Personally speaking, a 90 day countdown would feature prominently in my thoughts. Every single day. That was partly my reason to apply for a US visa when I was planning to bike there.

My understanding (again, just an understanding) is that there is less an EU visa available and more of a range of visa options from different countries. So, for example, a visa from France means that the days in transit through France do not count from the 90 days Schengen allowance.

At least you have time to investigate this, perhaps through the UK consulate in those countries that look promising or their consulates here.

If (a big if) the ETIAS system does kick off next year, it may mean a simpler visa application process for someone in your shoes. It may be worthwhile contacting the relevant department in the EU for advice.

Also, consider looking at a place like CGOAB for non-EU residents who have done similar recently and see how they managed it. Other sources may be some of the popular Camino fora. Prepare for lots of heat, not a lot of light.

Ireland is an interesting possibility, but not exactly convenient!

I'd be pretty sure that on arrival to France, or elsewhere, passengers from Ireland will be directed to an EU channel for immigration. Without an EU passport you'll be directed to "non EU passport holders". The Free Travel arrangement between Ireland & the UK can confuse matters.

Best of luck and it would be great if you'd update this thread as you work things out. It's a real shame that many of the members here have to work so much harder to do what comes so easily for me. (Irish).

 

[roubaixtuesday]

What a great trip to be contemplating!
Just to emphasise the importance of the basics - a passport that is well in date and the reminder it's 90 days out of 180 that are allowed.

Also, I believe* the ETIAS system (The EU equivalent of the US Esta visa waiver program) is due to kick in next year. This means that an official, online log will be kept of comings and goings. It may also mean that a uniform system of enforcement is applied across all countries.

* In these kinds of topics I'd always suggest being wary of random (if well intentioned) advice on the Internet.

As regards enforcement, my understanding is that it varies from country to country. I believe, for example, that Spain has quite relaxed exit controls, probably due to the many tens of thousands who travel to Spain to become Pilgrims every year. Other countries may not be so relaxed. From my own experience, I can't help but draw the conclusion that those that are rude and arrogant in their dealings with officialdom invariably suffer more than the more humble, respectful traveller. A disgruntled inspector can easily hold someone back to the point of missing their flight. No long term implications but a whole host of short term issues.

In any case, violation of the Visa waiver can mean the requirement to apply for a visa in future with knock on effects for other countries.

If you're wondering if transiting through an EU airport will count towards the 90 days I draw the conclusion that your plan is sailing close to the limit? In that case, is there anything to be said for ignoring the 90 days of the Visa waiver and exploring the possibility of an actual visa? Or supplementing the visa waiver with selected visas?

Personally speaking, a 90 day countdown would feature prominently in my thoughts. Every single day. That was partly my reason to apply for a US visa when I was planning to bike there.

My understanding (again, just an understanding) is that there is less an EU visa available and more of a range of visa options from different countries. So, for example, a visa from France means that the days in transit through France do not count from the 90 days Schengen allowance.

At least you have time to investigate this, perhaps through the UK consulate in those countries that look promising or their consulates here.

If (a big if) the ETIAS system does kick off next year, it may mean a simpler visa application process for someone in your shoes. It may be worthwhile contacting the relevant department in the EU for advice.

Also, consider looking at a place like CGOAB for non-EU residents who have done similar recently and see how they managed it. Other sources may be some of the popular Camino fora. Prepare for lots of heat, not a lot of light.


I'd be pretty sure that on arrival to France, or elsewhere, passengers from Ireland will be directed to an EU channel for immigration. Without an EU passport you'll be directed to "non EU passport holders". The Free Travel arrangement between Ireland & the UK can confuse matters.

Best of luck and it would be great if you'd update this thread as you work things out. It's a real shame that many of the members here have to work so much harder to do what comes so easily for me. (Irish).

Thanks for the thoughtful advice.

My understanding is that an individual country visa does *not* override the Schengen countdown, but I'll look into it. I'm pretty sure I've read of Brits in that situation on work visas who then need individual country visa to travel elsewhere in the EU. I would appreciate links to advice on this if anyone has them.

So in our case, we'd need Dutch (and maybe German too) visas to derisk the whole thing. I've already looked into Dutch visas and there doesn't seem to be an option for dilettante cyclists or holidays - you need a work or family sponsor. That makes it not an option.

Re the countdown overshadowing things, we do have options, in the end, to put the tandem into storage somewhere and fly home, coming back to rescue it another time, or do a one way van hire across Germany. Unfortunately unlike with ordinary bikes, jumping on a train or plane isn't possible.

We will be close to the limit; we have a once in a lifetime opportunity for this trip and will use it. This is about understanding the system as best as possible in advance so we don't get a nasty surprise when leaving.

 

[mjr]

[...] you might get waved through with no stamp. (Has anyone on here tried this?) If this proved to be the case, you would at least have the first part of your journey free of the 90-day rule and only start clocking up days when you flew back from the mid-tour break where you would pick up the obligatory airport stamps.

A friend who travels a lot for work has had to hunt down a border guard a couple of times to get a stamp. Once at Bordeaux airport, I think. I don't remember where the flight came from. I was told the border guard said that a missing entry stamp would mean they'd count it as if you'd entered the Schengen zone on the day after the latest previous stamp. So dodging in across the-less monitored border with Ireland is not a good option IMO.