Sensible car maintenance advice?

[Drago]

I learned by a) listening to my Dad, b) doing everything my Dad told me to, c) and not venturing out in the car unless absolutely necessary, just like the porkers said on the radio.

These days they ignore sensible advice, risk their lives in appalling conditions for the sake of an unnecessary journey, and often don't bother take sensible clothing and equipment with them.

In addition, modern cars are heavier, have fatter tyres, and tarmac oriented stability aids which make them far less suited to the snow than the typical cars of yore.

 

[Richard A Thackeray]

In a really powerful car, M5 or summat like that, you need to be a bit more sensitive with the loud pedal than simply stamping on it.

Oh yes indeed!!
We used to have a Jaguar XKR, with the super-charged V8 (so no 'lag'!!)
If you were silly enough to disengage the traction control, at the same time as 'Sport-Mode', it got quite evil & a bit tail-happy

 

[HF2300]

The retardation of the rear wheels due to engine braking mean you have more chance of seeing a ditch if you don't power through it. Depends entirely on the situation but if you don't apply power the back end will snap the opposite direction when traction returns (depending on angle and direction of travel)

However, in your average rear drive yawnbucket like a Sierra 1.6 you want that back end to bite, and bite quick. Braking will spin you, lifting off will bring on a tank slapper, which leaves you only the accelerator.

Well, I'm assuming attempting to recover an oversteering slide in a rear wheel drive car, which is where the discussion seemed to start. In that situation you have more options than apply accelerator or don't apply accelerator; and, while I appreciate Drago's 'stamp on the gas' comment was probably intentionally glib, doing so risks making the slide worse even in a fairly underpowered car.

In a really powerful car, M5 or summat like that, you need to be a bit more sensitive with the loud pedal than simply stamping on it

By applying some well judged power, the point at which the rear tyres regain grip is more gradual and avoids the 'snapping back' effect.

For me this is closer to the mark, but I'd argue sensitivity is needed in a vehicle of any power, not simply a high powered car. Bringing a slide back gradually (or maintaining a slide) by modulating power to the driven wheels (coupled with appropriate steering input) is a fairly advanced technique as well, and takes some experience to get right...

Its utterly counter intuitive and takes some training to reprogram your reflexes.

...so for basic spin recovery for Joe Public I'd argue the simplest and most generally effective technique is best.

Sometimes your better just to steer away from the slide and spin as the momentum will carry the car straight

Only if you've lost grip to all wheels in e.g. a straight line black ice situation. In an oversteering slide the car will always spin in an arc.

The drive wheels will push the car forward so due to the opposite lock you stop the car pivoting in its axis and control the slide.

Well, don't forget they will only push the car forward if they have some degree of grip, which comes back to stamp on the gas being a bad idea...

 

[Drago]

Well, I'm confused now. Do I believe the Police driver trainers who spent 6 weeks telling me about such stuff, showing me how to do it, and then watching me do it myself, or do I now forget all that and believe the internet?

 

[HF2300]

Forget it and believe the internet, of course!

I don't think our positions are opposed, I just think there are more nuances than 'stamp on the gas'.

 

[Jody]

Well, I'm assuming attempting to recover an oversteering slide in a rear wheel drive car, which is where the discussion seemed to start. In that situation you have more options than apply accelerator or don't apply accelerator;

You only have 3 options for manipulating control of a car. Brake, accelerator and steering. Using your brake will encourage weight transfer to the front so will in most circumstances make a situation worse (unless you have the option to control brake bias). You're already steering into the slide to try and correct. What single option do you have left?

Only if you've lost grip to all wheels in e.g. a straight line black ice situation. In an oversteering slide the car will always spin in an arc.

Yes your right it will follow an arc if you let it. By steering away from the slide you stop the vehicle travelling in its current arc and induce a pirouet. This will make the car follow near to its original tradjectory dependant on how far into that arc you have travelled. In certain circumstances this is you best option if you don't want to end up in the barrier.

Well, don't forget they will only push the car forward if they have some degree of grip, which comes back to stamp on the gas being a bad idea...

No it doesnt and goes back to my original drift comment. You still have an element of friction even when the car is going sideways and is effectively out of control. Yes the back wheels will spin when the accelerator is applied but even with limited traction the car will still be pushed forwards and hence counteract pivoting on its axis.

 

[jonny jeez]

you've got to be going bloody fast to slide a modern car however crap a model.

That's not true.

 

[jonny jeez]

ESC has been mandatory for a bit now, to quote wiki:
Theres also the deals on new cars including free insurance available (usual suspect is Citroen). It's standard on a good number of cars before then too, so ever more likely new drivers will have a first drive with it. Our 2008 Roomster has it - not an expensive car now by any means.
A favourite I hear locally is every time it snows, there are complaints on local radio (by older drivers) about young drivers not knowing how to drive in snow. So, how do they learn then? And how did YOU learn?

I think you are grossly overestimating the average new drivers financial ability. . A 17 year old, who is still in full time education will likely be driving a car worth 2-4k. My daughter is now 18, her friends are all of similar age, so my frame of reference here is pretty wide.

So we are talking 55-59 plate cars.. In other words cars that can be a decade old.

Sure, once you are in your 20"s more modern options are available but unless you are quite privileged, a brand new car as a teenager is a stretch.

My daughter has had skid experience (on grass) and handled it all very well. Untill she can afford a car that can mitigate the risk, I feel more secure in her own ability.

 

[Pale Rider]

I recall drifting rear wheel drive Fords around roundabouts.

Seemed quite simple to me, unwind the steering and apply a bit of power to control the slide.

Worth pointing out the speed was very modest, an observer wouldn't regard it as fast.

It was one of the strengths of those Fords, you could have some skiddy fun without having to go so fast as to risk much injury if it went wrong.

 

[jonny jeez]

As a side note. I resent the inference that teaching folk to properly handle a ton or so of lethal weapon is somehow encouraging them to take more risk. Furthermore the reliance on something "other" to look after me, or my loved ones feels like we are advocating some sort of diminished responsibility.

When sh1t happens, YOU need to know how to deal with it.

Lastly, do any of the posters who don't share this view understand the restrictions placed on new drivers. My daughter (and me for that matter) is constantly monitored. Any infraction, be it speeding or taking a bend with above average G force, results in a loss of score, which will, within a month lead to cancellation of her insurance policy and a new once costing far more than the car itself.

This is the what its like to be a new driver in the real world

 

[jonny jeez]

Good! New, young drivers are amongst those most at risk.

Absolutely. My point is they the majority are unable to act like hooligans...and in reality very few of them are interested in doing so.

 

[Piemaster]

I think you are grossly overestimating the average new drivers financial ability. . A 17 year old, who is still in full time education will likely be driving a car worth 2-4k. My daughter is now 18, her friends are all of similar age, so my frame of reference here is pretty wide.

So we are talking 55-59 plate cars.. In other words cars that can be a decade old.

I wouldn't say 'grossly overestimating'. Personal experience 2008 Roomster 4k 2 years ago. Within your price range, with ESC - the cars are there, and as time moves on the available pool with it will only get bigger. Roomster though probably not what the average 17 year old would want to be seen in! Son is now 20, daughter signed up for lessons in few weeks once she is 17, in full time education too, friends in similar situation, so we have similar reference there.
There is a lack of any real want to have a car amongst them unlike there was amongst my peers at a similar age. Daughters biggest motivation seems to be passing the test in less attempts than her brother!

 

[subaqua]

ESC has been mandatory for a bit now, to quote wiki:
Theres also the deals on new cars including free insurance available (usual suspect is Citroen). It's standard on a good number of cars before then too, so ever more likely new drivers will have a first drive with it. Our 2008 Roomster has it - not an expensive car now by any means.
A favourite I hear locally is every time it snows, there are complaints on local radio (by older drivers) about young drivers not knowing how to drive in snow. So, how do they learn then? And how did YOU learn?

I went out into the snow fields in North Wales and worked out what went where and why . Same as wifey . Which is why in 2010 she made it back to London when lots just stopped on M1

 

[HF2300]

@Jody, I can see this discussion going round and round so I think we'll have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

It was one of the strengths of those Fords, you could have some skiddy fun without having to go so fast as to risk much injury if it went wrong.

Roger Clark once said of Escorts "If you're not looking out of the back window, you're in control"