Shorter frame number location?

[pippy]

Hello!

I don't know any details, really, about vintage and classic frames so please do excuse me if I ask anything which might seem obvious to someone better informed...

Can anyone advise me on where I might locate the serial number of a Shorter frame? I have had a pretty good look at the BB shell and can see no sign of the number there. Nor is there any number on the steering-tube but, as mentioned, I don't know whether Shorter / Rochford utilised such a practice.

As can be seen from my post-count I'm a newbie and came across this website when trying to find out something regarding some details of my frame; specifically the Italian Fastback / Shot-in(?) stays. A search on the www picked-up this post by member biggs682 where a frame recently acquired by them utilises the same feature;

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/shorter-rochford.218906/

As such this might be a very good place to start a little bit of a background check.

This is a general shot of the thing;

Just FWIW in case anyone might be interested;

This was bought (as a built-up bike) from a junk stall in Camden Market late'87 / early '88.
I was looking for a hack to use as a shopping-bike (so as to spare my 'good' bike) and when found it was in an absolutely terrible state. It had been given a coat of chocolate brown emulsion paint(!) and the 'equipment' was the very cheapest of the cheap so as-was it suited my plans perfectly. It was only when I started stripping it down that it started to become clear that there was some quality to the frame...
Once the emulsion started to come off I found the remains of the Shorter transfers and my plans had to change. It was duly taken up to their shop for a respray(*) and - at the time - they could even remember the rider who had ordered the frame as well as how much it had cost them which was rather more than the £25 I paid for the whole bike...

Anyhow; I've forgotten all that I was told about it so it would be lovely if comeone could shed any more light on the project. It hasn't been ridden for 25 years or so ("Life" got in the way) but as I've now officially retired my plan is to re-commision both this bike(*) as well as the 'good' one mentioned earlier. The latter, however, will require quite a bit more work. Here's a snap of the old girl; frame bought new as my Xmas present in 1976 and built-up over the course of the next eleven months;

Thanks in advance!

Philip.

* It ended up being equipped with a full Campagnolo Victory groupset which - chainset apart - has now been returned to 'as new' condition).

 

[All uphill]

I know nothing about these bikes,, except that I like them.

Over to you @biggs682

 

[Gillstay]

Could the frame number be on one of the rear drop outs ?

 

[pippy]

Could the frame number be on one of the rear drop outs ?

Thanks for the suggestion, Gillstay, but no; sadly nothing so straightforward!

For some reason my mind is saying that it might have been on the 'Italia(?)' lug but it isn't there either. There must be a number somewhere, though, because when it was away for the respray the chaps at Shorter Rochford checked their records to confirm that it actually was what they thought they had remembered; it had been a special-order build.

I'll have a REALLY good look at it tomorrow when there should be some daylight...

Philip.

 

[midlife]

Frames built by outside frame builders for a shop were usually not numbered unless somebody could be bothered to stamp one.

 

[classic33]

https://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/classic_builders/shorter-alan/

 

[biggs682]

Welcome @pippy see below threads for the two Shorter's I have owned previously

See Thread 'Shorter no 3277' https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/shorter-no-3277.245135/

And the one you mentioned.

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/shorter-rochford.218906/

 

[pippy]

https://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/classic_builders/shorter-alan/

Thank you very much for posting this link classic33; fascinating bit of history; the vast majority of which is new to me.

Having had a subscription to Cycling Weekly taken out for me by my parents (c. 1972) I became very familiar with the achievements of Alf Engers and others of the time such as Eddie Adkins as they were 'in the news' pretty much every week for one reason or another.
It was seeing photographs of Alf Engers which first brought the name 'Shorter' to my notice.

Interestingly within the touring club where I was a member (C.T.C. Falkirk District) there was a pronounced split in viewpoints between members concerning the approach to racing taken by Mr. Engers but that's another story...

Thanks again!

Philip.

 

[pippy]

Thanks for that, too, Biggs682.

Do you have any idea of the build-years of the pair? As I'm not familiar with too many Shorter frames it is interesting to note how many details are different between the two builds.

Cheers!

Philip.

 

[pippy]

Frames built by outside frame builders for a shop were usually not numbered unless somebody could be bothered to stamp one.

Thanks for that midlife.

Apologies in advance if the next bit is a silly question but does this suggest that Shorter didn't have their own frame-builder working in-house for these sorts of order? If so would they employ the skills of, effectively, a frame-builder working 'Freelance'?

Philip.

 

[midlife]

Back in the 70's all sorts of frames were built off-site and decaled in the shop that sold them. Andy Thompson built a frame that ended up in Falcon livery. I have a CarHall (Carter and Hall) frame built by Wally Green.

The master was Mike Kowal at Autostrada but that was a bit later.

I came across Shorter Frames BITD but don't recall one with the seat tube decal on the downtube and the head tube decal on the seat tube.

 

[pippy]

...I came across Shorter Frames BITD but don't recall one with the seat tube decal on the downtube and the head tube decal on the seat tube.

The "head-tube-on-seat-tube" thing was at my request.

I wasn't a great fan of what seemed to be Shorter's 'preferred style' of the time where 'Shorter' transfers were plastered over anything with enough space to carry them. No idea, however, why they chose to use the seat-tube transfer on the down-tube...

They also (IMO) got the distance / spacing of the transfers slightly 'wrong'. Once a front mech. changer's clip is attached to the seat-tube the 'crest' sits too low down the remaining length of tube. Perhaps if a pair of world champion-style 'Rainbow Stripes' had been fitted as well the 'correct' spot might have become obvious to whoever carried out the work. Who knows.
Mind you; there was something apart from the transfer-spacing which was far more annoying when I went in to collect the frame...

When I was ordering the re-spray the colour selected was very similar (identical?) to that seen titled as '16. Verde Lago Metallic' seen in the Argos website (link attached). What I actually received was '15. Verde'.
On collection, as soon as they brought it out, I said; "Oh! It's Bright Green!!!" to which they asked what colour it should have been?
After checking through the original order and their colour chart they accepted full responsibility and offered to have the frame resprayed once more. As by this time I had already been waiting some three months I decided to just accept it as it was. In retrospect that was a very bad decision on my part as I have never felt happy with the colour...

Have a look at the difference here and things will become clear;

https://argoscycles.com/colour-chart/

Philip.

 

[Webbo2]

Back in the 70's all sorts of frames were built off-site and decaled in the shop that sold them. Andy Thompson built a frame that ended up in Falcon livery. I have a CarHall (Carter and Hall) frame built by Wally Green.

The master was Mike Kowal at Autostrada but that was a bit later.

I came across Shorter Frames BITD but don't recall one with the seat tube decal on the downtube and the head tube decal on the seat tube.

I had Cougar that was badged as a Falcon when our club was sponsored by Falcon. I won it for being the most improved rider that year.

 

[biggs682]

Thanks for that, too, Biggs682.

Do you have any idea of the build-years of the pair? As I'm not familiar with too many Shorter frames it is interesting to note how many details are different between the two builds.

Cheers!

Philip.

The gold one was 1977/8 never got confirmation of the other one.

The gold one was built purely for racing and specific to the original owners choice of parts .

 

[pippy]

The gold one was 1977/8 never got confirmation of the other one....The gold one was built purely for racing and specific to the original owners choice of parts .

Thanks for that extra information, biggs682, as it does touch on the Shorter shown earlier somewhat.

Apparently the client who commisioned 'my' frame specified 73 parallel angles but with a 1 3/4 fork" rake(?) so presumably to provide a more relaxed ride as a fast tourer? There are mudguard eyes and plenty of clearance so, obviously, it wasn't ordered by someone with thoughts of breaking the '25' record...

The choice of lugs on 'my' Shorter has always been a bit of a mystery (to me) as they seem to be "Neither fish, nor flesh, nor good red herring" (as it were).
Back in the day I knew a small-but-reasonable amount about the prevalence of lugs used by numerous frame builders from the likes of Prugnat and Nervex and also a little bit about the hand carved stuff crafted individually by frame-builders employed by Hetchins and so on but as these details were never a priority for my usage the lugs on the Shorter were never given a second's thought.

I have no idea what these lugs are nor where they were made. In all honesty they are - IMO! - not that attractive (to put it mildly) but 'pretty' is a subjective thing; perhaps the person who comissioned the frame had a different 'aesthetic'?

Philip.