solar power

[Yellow Fang]

PV panels are described in kWp (kilowatt peak) terms, but no one pretends that they will output this amount of electricity all the time. The estimates for the electricity you generate do take into account the seasons and the weather.

I am not sure you could make money by connecting up your electricity input to your output and selling it for a profit for several reasons:

1. You can't just tell your energy utility you have a set of solar panels. They have to be installed by an accredited installer.
2. At present, the smart meters which would tell your utility how much electricity you are generating are not yet in place, so the utilities deem how much your installation is generating for the time of year and weather conditions.
3. When the smart meters are in place, if you have bypassed the PV panels that you had to buy to qualify for the FIT, and just connected your electrical input to your output, it would soon become apparent, because while everyone else's PV panels were generating varying amounts of electricity, according to the weather, your's would be constant.

Sure, photovoltaic panels make more sense in sunnier countries. In America, for example where peak load is during the day, due to all the air-conditioning, they make more sense. I am not sure whether it's the most economic way to replace electricity from fossil fuels either. However, they reduce the amount of gas burnt in gas stations. Solar photovoltaics is the only form of renewable energy that is really feasible for generating electricity in the home for the majority of home owners. It's a way of making use of roof space, so it's not taking up arable land or spoiling landscapes. It's one of the few types of renewable energy installation that actually stands a chance of getting built. Normally, whenever there's a venture to install a wind turbine, river hydro, biomass CHP or biogas installation, objecters protest, planning permission is refused and the project never gets off the ground. If you're trying to replace fossil fuels it is very hard to make the numbers add up, especially if nuclear is unacceptable too, and everyone objects to every wind farm that is put up. Besides, only the early adopters will get the high tariff. The tariff will decrease for newer adopters as the industry becomes more established and prices are anticipated to come down.

You can argue it's a regressive tax because poorer people who don't own their homes or can't afford the panels are paying wealthier people a high tariff for their solar electricity in their bills, but there are plenty of taxes that go the other way. There have been items on the news regarding retired people who find they are having to spend their savings instead of the interest on their savings because the interest rates are so low. If they are recently retired than solar PV is an option for them.

It's also not true that all PV installers are like double glazing salesmen. I know someone who wanted to have solar PV installed in her home, but when the surveyor came around to look, he said he couldn't recommend it because of the large tree in a neighbouring garden. I suspect this might be changing a bit now with a lot of new people coming into the industry, but the older PV installers are generally committed environmentalists. Check how long your installer has been in business.

 

[pubrunner]

I am not sure you could make money by connecting up your electricity input to your output and selling it for a profit for several reasons:

That wasn't a serious idea !


I'm not certain that solar power can be economically viable in the UK; how any salesmen will tell you that the power inverters need replacing every 10 years (at the latest) - assuming they don't fail before then ? How many salesmen will tell you that a new inverter will cost at least £1,000 ? and then, there will be the fitting/installation costs.

 

[Yellow Fang]

I wasn't being serious

Your point 2 is interesting, is this correct that solar panels are not being monitored by smart meters ? and the amount of electricity being generated is just estimated.

I wonder how much over estimated these figures are, so as to produce the figures the government want to read. And I wonder how disappointed the customers will be when the smart meters are eventually fitted and the realisation that these solar panels are not much more capable than keeping the tv on standby.

I think the point about your electricity generation is correct. It is what I was told the last time I heard anything about it. Things may have changed. No doubt eventually the energy utilities will issue all their customers with smart meters, which not only will inform the utilities what your real time energy consumption and generation is, but will also enable them to switch off your freezer, tumble dryer or immersion heater at moments of peak demand.

I know someone who recently had about 4kWp of solar panels installed. The inverter incorporates a datalogger that records the amount of electricity generated. He says that so far, the panels have generated more electricity than was predicted.

 

[Flying Dodo]

I've had 4 different firms in to quote, from one man bands to large regional companies (one of which also does double glazing!) They all said about a 10-15 year life span on the inverter and around £1,000 replacement cost.

They were all very careful to state the official sanctioned figures for the expected amounts based on my location, and only say that I may get more.

However, I'm sure as more firms jump on the bandwagon, standards will slip.

 

[slowmotion]

I know someone who recently had about 4kWp of solar panels installed. The inverter incorporates a datalogger that records the amount of electricity generated. He says that so far, the panels have generated more electricity than was predicted.

Ahem, did the datalogger record the amount of electricity used by the inverter? My only reason for asking is that on some small wind turbine installations the inverter sometimes consumes more electricity than the turbine generates over the course of a year. The datalogger built into some inverters only records the turbine output, not the "parasitic" energy....

 

[Yellow Fang]

Ahem, did the datalogger record the amount of electricity used by the inverter? My only reason for asking is that on some small wind turbine installations the inverter sometimes consumes more electricity than the turbine generates over the course of a year. The datalogger built into some inverters only records the turbine output, not the "parasitic" energy....

I don't know, but it's a Fronius inverter and their website claims an efficiency of over 90%.

 

[nosherduke996]

Anybody considering this had better be quick. I have been lucky as mine are being installed next Wednesday, phew !

 

[Mozzy]

Next door neighbour supplies and fits these things. We are an area of mostly bungalows and they are a serious blot on the landscape. Note the Government has reduced the payment by 50%. Think it was this week that took place. This is (IMHO) such a horrible looking affair. Hate it beyond belief. Just saying.

Mozzy

 

[Flying Dodo]

I only have an idle interest in this as I'm not a UK taxpayer, but are you saying your feed-in tariff is protected? I didn't think that was the case from what little I've heard about it.

I actually took the time to go through the specific legislation (as there was nothing interesting on TV at the time). Effectively it is protected for the 25 year period, and guaranteed to increase by RPI (not CPI). Now in theory, a future Government could try and bring in retrospective legislation to alter the rates for installations already in force, but in practice they just wouldn't get away with it.

 

[Doseone]

Now in theory, a future Government could try and bring in retrospective legislation to alter the rates for installations already in force, but in practice they just wouldn't get away with it.

In a way they have already done it. The FIT for large commercial schemes has been slashed recently. People were putting in huge commercial systems for profit / investment which wasn't the intention behind the original legislation which was designed to put green electricity within reach of small scale domestic users.

A few things to be aware of with solar pv:

There are 2 ways to do it...

1. Rent a roof scemes. The installing company will pay for the pv, wiring, inverter etc. You get the cheap electricity, they get your FIT and a 25 year charge over your property. An average 2.5kw system should generate approx 2000kw of electricity p.a. This is less than half of the useage of the average family. You are then stuck with the panels on your roof and any buyer of your property will have to be prepared to take on the liability and be happy to be stuck with a charge against the property for the remainder of the agreement period.

2. Pay for it yourself. A 2.5 kw system will be approx £11000. I won't bore you with the maths - there are many sites on t'web where the calcs are set out. (I recommend the website for the Centre for Alternative Technology ). If you pay for the system yourself, with the FIT and cheaper electricity (assuming the FIT is not reduced in the future) you are looking at payback of 10 - 14 yrs. The average time people stay in a house is 7 years - you are effectively funding the next occupants of your property.

 

[Flying Dodo]

In a way they have already done it. The FIT for large commercial schemes has been slashed recently. People were putting in huge commercial systems for profit / investment which wasn't the intention behind the original legislation which was designed to put green electricity within reach of small scale domestic users.

The alteration for commercial schemes was for new installations, in the same way the leaked changes for domestic installations will only affect new ones, I think from December.

 

[Maz]

On the way back from work saw some trick-or-treaters lobbing stones at a roof with solar panels on it.
Could cost a bit to repair if they get a direct hit.