special lube?

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Location
London
I know little about ebikes, don't have one (yet), but I was intrigued by this which popped up from an ebay seller I use for leg powered stuff sometimes.

592090



https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/144025021559?hash=item21888f6c77:g:Vg4AAOSwGAJgjAbh

so do you really need special lube for ebikes?
 

Pale Rider

Legendary Member
The notion of a (legal) ebike having a high torque drivetrain is surely nonsense.

On my Bosch ebike, I can just about match a fit club roadie on a climb.

The likes of Bernal would leave me for dust.

So if anyone needs a special lube, it's him.
 

Legomutton

Senior Member
Well...some crank drives claim to add 300% or more to the rider's effort. That is presumably torque limited so wouldn't really add 300% to Bernal's efforts but with a higher powered MTB motor it could get transmission loads pretty high.

In my case I use mainly Eco (40% addition to a weak cyclist's efforts), even on hills now I am getting my legs back so I don't think I would qualify but riders who habitually use the higher assist modes could well be giving the drive train an unusually hard time - as I have no doubt Bernal does, and I expect he has a new chain every day.

I still think it's just marketing - are they saying that 'normal' chain oil is deliberately made to a lower standard? It happens with Nurofen -
Targeted pain relief or targeted marketing?

The weak link could however be the wheels, and the lubricant won't help that much.

I hate chain cleaning and the muck that oil hangs on to, and I'm a fair weather on-road cyclist, so I have started using 'dry' wax.
 
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fossyant

Ride It Like You Stole It!
Location
South Manchester
Snake oil. Finish Line Ceramic wet is my fave as it runs pretty clean and is easy to wipe off (not because of 'ceramic' in the name). Also Muck Off Wet from Aldi is pretty clean running and a little cheaper
 

Drago

Legendary Member
Well...some crank drives claim to add 300% or more to the rider's effort. That is presumably torque limited so wouldn't really add 300% to Bernal's efforts but with a higher powered MTB motor it could get transmission loads pretty high.
The claims are utter garbage. Some are claiming 70 or 80NM, as much as some small cars produce. That's clearly guff. Tow a small car with a bicycle chain using sufficient torque to get it moving and its doubtful the chain would survive, which just shows how preposterous the effort and power claims are.

The issue is there is no legislative or industry standard, so manufacturers are free to make up whatever they want without consequence.

Paley is, as usual, correct. I can outclimb ebikes with little difficulty, so I am capable of producing more effort in a shorter period of time than an ebike (including my own) and Ive managed my 50 year riding career without any special lubes.
 
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OP
OP
Blue Hills
Location
London
So it's garbage then as I suspected.
Slightly disappointed I must say to see weldtite indulging in this sort of stuff but I suppose it's the way of the cycling world.
I actually use their TF2 chain lube for non ebikes which I think excellent.
I bought a litre for a very decent price.
And I also often wonder whether it's exactly the same as the stuff sold by wilco.

This:
https://www.wilko.com/en-uk/wilko-a...lon-surface-protect-protector-100ml/p/0344046

I use the both the TF2 and wilco stuff


Next week I suppose they launch post-ebike-ride-balm for ebike bums.
 
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Legomutton

Senior Member
The claims are utter garbage. Some are claiming 70 or 80NM, as much as some small cars produce. That's clearly guff. Tow a small car with a bicycle chain using sufficient torque to get it moving and its doubtful the chain would survive, which just shows how preposterous the effort and power claims are.

A bit iffy as an unqualified claim, but not necessarily a lie. It's quite possible that a 250W rated bike motor could produce the same torque at its crankshaft as a small car. The missing bit of the equation is rpm.

kW = 0.105 x Nm x rpm / 1000. So your small car with 80Nm @ 5000 rpm will produce 42kW, about 56bhp. Your 80Nm bike, at a cadence of 60, would produce 0.5kW or 500W, which is just about credible as a peak power figure for a motor with a continuous power rating of 250W.

Watts = Amps * Volts so at 36V, you'd need 14A to produce half a kW. That also sounds credible - 15A - 20A controllers wouldn't be unusual, would they?

If the pedaller was only maintaining a cadence of 30, then 80Nm would produce c. 250W, the rating of the motor. What they don't quote (there is as you say no standard) is the rpm at which peak torque is produced.

I don't entirely disagree with your drift because there will undoubtedly be conditions in which the motor can't add 300% - because the rpm are too low perhaps, or the rider input is very high. But 40-80 Nm is quite on the cards at the cranks.

EDIT - you can do similar sums for a person. It's said that a fit cyclist can produce around 250W. If he or she is doing that at a cadence of 60, then they are applying torque of about 40Nm. To deliver 250W at a cadence of 30 would require the magic 80Nm.

I think it's reasonable to claim that an e-bike typically applies significantly more torque (force) to the drive train than an average Sunday cyclist. Inexperienced cyclists are probably the worst for the drive train because they tend to use low cadence (therefor more torque for the same power).

P.P.S. - 10 Newtons is equivalent to 1 Kilogram force. I Don't know how much you weigh, but if you can apply 50Kg. of your weight to a 170mm crank at the horizontal then at that moment you are applying about >80 Nm. to the crank yourself - 500 Newtons at 0.17 metres being 500 x 0.17 = 85Nm. Of course, if the crank was stationary you would be producing 85Nm. but no power at all.
 
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Legomutton

Senior Member
This calculator might help in understanding how torque relates to power, and why a bike motor can feasibly exert the same torque as a small car.

Torque-RPM-Power calculator

It also illustrates why the way to get the best support out of a EAPC is to keep cadence up.
 

fossyant

Ride It Like You Stole It!
Location
South Manchester
@Legomutton a fit rider can out power a legal e-bike. No need for special oil, unless you take into account many e-bike users aren't regular cyclists, and might need thicker oils as they don't maintain the bikes anyway.

I say 'many' as most on here use both types of bikes. E-bikes are the new thing at Trail centres - let's in-experienced riders get to the top of big mountains, then come down with a very heavy bit of kit.
 

Legomutton

Senior Member
@Legomutton a fit rider can out power a legal e-bike. No need for special oil, unless you take into account many e-bike users aren't regular cyclists, and might need thicker oils as they don't maintain the bikes anyway.

I don't doubt it, particularly for short periods, especially if you specify power rather than torque (experienced riders tend to have decent cadence). But a crank-drive e-bike is still going to put more torque through the crank than the same rider on an unassisted bike, because the motor's contribution is additional to the rider's own input; and the rider is probably also using a higher gear because of the assistance.

To say that the average e-bike doesn't have a high-torque drive train compared with a fit roadie or Bernal is fair, but I'm pretty sure Bernal goes through a lot of chains.

I, on the other hand, am a physically weak cyclist who uses mainly Eco (and low gears) rather than whacking it into Turbo mode, so even on my e-bike I think my chain has an easy time.

I agree it's unlikely the oil is special, I think it's marketing.

I'm sorry if I laboured the point that the e-bike torque claims can't be dismissed just because a small car has the same torque figure. Torque and power are not the same thing. The car can have the same torque even though it has 100 x the power. The reason is that it has 100 x the revs.

And I liked the calculator toy so I passed it on.

Peace.
 

Pale Rider

Legendary Member
but I'm pretty sure Bernal goes through a lot of chains.

There is that, and I understand there is a complex relationship between torque and power which I don't fully understand.

But given the ebiker gets up the climb at roughly the same pace as the fit roadie, it seems very unlikely the stress on the respective drivetrains can be a great deal different.

The ebiker's cadence will typically be lower, although increasingly there are roadie-style ebikes which will attract roadies used to a higher cadence.

As a flat bar plodder, my cadence is probably about 60rpm, less on steep climbs.

Would a 90rpm+ cadence for the same speed significantly reduce the stress on a drivetrain?

The total weight the ebike chain has to shift will almost always be greater, which suggests to me a greater strain on it, but I doubt that amounts to much given the relatively small differences involved.
 
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