Star Wars weapons systems

[fossyant]

I wouldn't broadcast this around too much as @fossyant will want one to strap one to his panniers as a rear light.

Pardon.

Could just about power it too.

 

[MontyVeda]

Some may say it was such a blast it was radioactive.

Playing with there new toys was a reason but there was more to it than you post suggests.
Just the fact the invasion would have cost a few extra million us troops to invade the jap homeland.
That possibly played a part.

Possibly.... or they could have just waited for the Japanese to surrender, since they'd already been militarily overpowered, it would only have been a matter of days.... but history has a habit of twisting the facts to justify the mass murder of several million Japanese citizens.
God bless America!

 

[Cycling Dan]

Possibly.... or they could have just waited for the Japanese to surrender, since they'd already been militarily overpowered, it would only have been a matter of days.... but history has a habit of twisting the facts to justify the mass murder of several million Japanese citizens.
God bless America!

You really do not know your history then. From a miltiary view as soon as Iwo Jima fell that was the end of Japan, no victory was possible. However Japan was by no means finished, they were of course going to lose but that didn't matter. The government and the people would rather see japan destroyed than surrender to the Americans without a fight. A mandate was issued that every citizen of the empire under the sun should fight to the death with anything they could.
Although the big six where looking for terms favourable to them with Russia being the mediator. That however if failed they would still likely have fought on. Hoping on attrition to aid them along.

American forces estimated that to take the mainland it would cost 1m military dead not even counting the wounded. The Americans learned in Germany that if a bombing campaign to level the country couldn't beat the Germans into surrender it sure as hell was not going to do the trick for the japs. They needed boots on the ground to kill every solider, woman and person able to bare arms.

It was only the nukes that forced them to surrender. To add to that it took a few days after for them to do so as there was a inter government spilt on a unconditional surrender. It was the emperor who pushed it past the government to surrender. Once the second nuke dropped and Russia invaded from the north.

The culture of no surrender was incredibly strong in japan after the era of the samurai. Even before then to be honest.

Even after the surrender there was an attempted coup to remove the government to continue to fight. A coup lead by the army. Which of course failed.

As horrible as it was I would stand by the choice of the Americans to nuke Japan. It was as I see it and history sees it 100% justified.

 

[Blue]

You really do not know your history then. From a miltiary view as soon as Iwo Jima fell that was the end of Japan, no victory was possible. However Japan was by no means finished, they were of course going to lose but that didn't matter. The government and the people would rather see japan destroyed than surrender to the Americans without a fight. A mandate was issued that every citizen of the empire under the sun should fight to the death with anything they could.
Although the big six where looking for terms favourable to them with Russia being the mediator. That however if failed they would still likely have fought on. Hoping on attrition to aid them along.

American forces estimated that to take the mainland it would cost 1m military dead not even counting the wounded. The Americans learned in Germany that if a bombing campaign to level the country couldn't beat the Germans into surrender it sure as hell was not going to do the trick for the japs. They needed boots on the ground to kill every solider, woman and person able to bare arms.

It was only the nukes that forced them to surrender. To add to that it took a few days after for them to do so as there was a inter government spilt on a unconditional surrender. It was the emperor who pushed it past the government to surrender. Once the second nuke dropped and Russia invaded from the north.

The culture of no surrender was incredibly strong in japan after the era of the samurai. Even before then to be honest.

Even after the surrender there was an attempted coup to remove the government to continue to fight. A coup lead by the army. Which of course failed.

As horrible as it was I would stand by the choice of the Americans to nuke Japan. It was as I see it and history sees it 100% justified.

Are you sure you know your history? The main, if not only, reason was to dictate to the USSR in relation to power in the wider region. 100% not justified in my opinion.

 

[MontyVeda]

....

As horrible as it was I would stand by the choice of the Americans to nuke Japan. It was as I see it and history sees it 100% justified.

disagree. sorry.

but since you and 'history' agree....

 

[Cycling Dan]

disagree. sorry.

but since you and 'history' agree....

What way would you bring the war to an end? No humane or ethical bs. You are to bring the war to a end costing as little Allied causalities and capital. How do you do it?

 

[ufkacbln]

There is an entire department in Whitehall that deals with ship's names and crests.

In the good old days of Empire we had big names like Dreadnought, Terrible, Invincible, Terror, or Aggressor.


Then came friendly names where ships were named after towns or places... th continuation of themes to identifythe ship's class

However he side was let down bythe Flower class frigates such as Daisy, Pansy, Begonia or Bitterssweet

Simply does not work!

You knew that if one of HMS terrible was sent to your territorial waters then you were being properly threatened. Somehow sending HMS Pansy or HMS Buttercup just does not feel threatening

 

[MontyVeda]

What way would you bring the war to an end? No humane or ethical bs. You are to bring the war to a end costing as little Allied causalities and capital. How do you do it?

by bombing your entire family... and just in case that might not be enough... by bombing your entire street... and just in case that might not be enough.... by bombing your entire city... in fact, lets cut out all the small solutions and just go for the big one... why bomb your house when i can bomb your entire fecking city.. happy now?

Is that inhumane enough for you? And just in case you think my solution is maybe a little too ethical... it's really not... many more people in your family and in your town will die a long, slow and agonising death from the radiation... which is what makes my new toy so much fun.... it's not just a big bang... not by a long chalk.

as requested, no humane or ethical bullshit... hope it didn't hurt too much by being 'your' family and not 'their' family.... had half your family been wiped out in 1945 I suspect you'd have a different opinion.

 

[Cycling Dan]

by bombing your entire family... and just in case that might not be enough... by bombing your entire street... and just in case that might not be enough.... by bombing your entire city... in fact, lets cut out all the small solutions and just go for the big one... why bomb your house when i can bomb your entire fecking city.. happy now?

Is that inhumane enough for you? And just in case you think my solution is maybe a little too ethical... it's really not... many more people in your family and in your town will die a long, slow and agonising death from the radiation... which is what makes my new toy so much fun.... it's not just a big bang... not by a long chalk.

as requested, no humane or ethical bulls***... hope it didn't hurt too much by being 'your' family and not 'their' family.... had half your family been wiped out in 1945 I suspect you'd have a different opinion.

So in answer to my question , "no I have no other solution".
"what was done was wrong but I don't know any other way to bring the result of the end of the war without the huge lost of life."
You mention small solutions. What exactly are they? Fighting the war like you normally would?

 

[MontyVeda]

So in answer to my question , "no I have no other solution".
"what was done was wrong but I don't know any other way to bring the result of the end of the war without the huge lost of life."
You mention small measures. What exactly are they? Fighting the war like you normally would?

ah you're one of those 'put words in my mouth' types... next you'll be asking how many miles I've cycled this year.

the small measures were bombing you, your house, or your street.

as i said earlier, i believe the Japanese would have surrendered given more time to debate the conditions of the inevitable surrender amongst themselves, the allies and the Russians.

but since the US had a new toy they wanted to try out and a communist nation to impress... no, an entire planet to impress with their might, they chose to murder millions of civilians instead of continuing the negotiations and finer details of the Japanese surrender. ... but history, that being written by the winning side, has a habit of twisting things in order to justify their actions, so people like you can say it was "100%" the right thing to do.

Personally i find it disturbing that so many people are so complacent and comfortable with the mass murder of millions of people. 100% justified my arse!

 

[Cycling Dan]

ah you're one of those 'put words in my mouth' types... next you'll be asking how many miles I've cycled this year.

the small measures were bombing you, your house, or your street.

as i said earlier, i believe the Japanese would have surrendered given more time to debate the conditions of the inevitable surrender amongst themselves, the allies and the Russians.

but since the US had a new toy they wanted to try out and a communist nation to impress... no, an entire planet to impress with their might, they chose to murder millions of civilians instead of continuing the negotiations and finer details of the Japanese surrender. ... but history, that being written by the winning side, has a habit of twisting things in order to justify their actions, so people like you can say it was "100%" the right thing to do.

Personally i find it disturbing that so many people are so complacent and comfortable with the mass murder of millions of people. 100% justified my arse!

While japan was looking for terms they wanted to maintain all the LANdthey gained during the early years of the war. It was never going to work. Japan was never going to surendr simply because the emperor was never going to allow it until the last bit of land was taken from them.
The emerpor is god in japan, it didn't matter what the government wanted if it was not in line with his view, it was not going to happen.
The only solution was the invasion of the home land.
You also have to accept that Russia invading was a suprise for all. The japs nor the allies expected it. The combined factor of the invasion and the nukes won the war. Why? One reason, the emeperour saw they had no way to fight back.

Further more the US government couldn't justify the invasion where there was a solution of using two nukes to bring the war to a close without costing any further deaths on their side.
Other factors may have been In play but they took a back seat.

Bringing the question back too you. Your dad brother and other family all die in the invasion of japan to end the war. Your friends and next door neigbourghs. All dead to avoid using a new weapon which will and did end the war. Do you still avoid it?
Of course this must be acceptable to you. You would rather clearly go for the slow solution bought in the death of millions over years more fighting.
A few hundred thousands dead in a few days rather than 8million combined dead in a few years was a better soltuion.

At the end of it all it was war, people die and there is no right answer but using the nukes was by far not the worst choice that could have been made

 

[Rickshaw Phil]

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFkazjodpeQ


Some of the debate in here is getting a bit heavy for the cafe don't you think?

 

[MontyVeda]

my dad my brother my friends and neighbours all got on a ship to invade a country and came home in a box.... they didn't have to get on that ship to invade that country, they chose to go, or felt duty bound to do so. The Japanese civilians didn't tell their government to go to war, they didn't join in with the war, they stayed at home and tried to get on with their lives, only to be used as pawns.

we're never going to agree on this... I think war and mass murder is wrong, others think it's hunky dory... it's a funny old world.

 

[Cycling Dan]

my dad my brother my friends and neighbours all got on a ship to invade a country and came home in a box.... they didn't have to get on that ship to invade that country, they chose to go, or felt duty bound to do so. The Japanese civilians didn't tell their government to go to war, they didn't join in with the war, they stayed at home and tried to get on with their lives, only to be used as pawns.

we're never going to agree on this... I think war and mass murder is wrong, others think it's hunky dory... it's a funny old world.

Get over yourself.
Going off polls after the bombing of pearl harbor public support to go to war was out of this world. Meanwhile Japan's citizens saw it as expansion and to greater their country. A majority of people were all on board. Japans citizens as you say were sitting at home building weaponry of war to help their family fighting in the pacific. Doing what they could to aid their country in its overall aim of pacific control.
Japan was able to start a war when they wanted. Their mistake was thinking they could win it. What was needed was done to bring the empire of japan to its knees to remove the threat of them in future. The entire country needed to be occupied and the government removed to become a puppet state until what was needed could be established.



Further more you would be happy for no one to fight the Germans in 1940 while just allowing them to roll on in to this country. After all there was no requirement for them to fight which is wrong, conscription. Allow them to kill off Jews gays and who ever they didn't like, impose fascism and destroy this half of the world. Your not one of them pacifists types are you? Why fight when you can love?

Keep in mind we are not arguing if war is right, what we have at hand is the solution to bring this war to an end. Anyone can argue it was wrong to start it. What matters is how you end it.
However what can only been seen is you preferring to have millions killed through conventional warfare rather than one swift movement having no were near the lively impact but double the effect.

 

[MontyVeda]

stick to the mantra my friend... that bomb saved lives