Such a thoughtful and caring parent...

[Norm]

I have three young children and would NEVER knowingly put them at risk by my actions or by inaction.

Back to my earlier post, what actual risk would you say was present in what the kid was doing? Not some mythological set of what ifs, but an actual probability. Put that another way, when was the last time you saw anyone driving around a retail park that needed to stand hard on their brakes? When was the last time that you saw a car accident? And how many cars do you see every day?

As has been suggested, we used to do lots of stuff without the safety features of today's cars, and we didn't die from it. The risk might be slightly increased (but I'd still like to know your estimate of the actual risk compared to driving whilst wearing a seat belt!) but it is still, in reality, vanishingly small and much smaller than a whole bunch of stuff that I reckon would be faced by most young kids do on a daily basis.

 

[marzjennings]

Marzjennings, picture yourself standing in a coroners court, defending to the coroner that the parent standing by you is kind, caring and thoughtful and was simply showing his daughter how much fun you could have by just sticking her head out of the car roof.

I have three young children and would NEVER knowingly put them at risk by my actions or by inaction.

So my daughter has stuck her head out of our sunroof, while I drive at 15-20mph the last couple hundreds yards down our street to the house. She may have done it a few times. And if by some freak accident she died and I would be gutted, end of my reason for living heartbroken. But it would have to be some really bizarre accident (meteor, unexploded mine, aliens) for that to happen.

I'm going to more concerned when I get her to make a cup of tea for the first time, slice up an onion with a sharp knife, mow the lawn, ride to school by herself (though I will be tailing her the first few times). Things that I consider riskier than sticking your head out of a slow moving vehicle's sunroof.

Have you wrapped your three children in a bubble that will never allow them to do anything risky?

 

[TonyEnjoyD]

The car was driving along a road which has around six junctions from the car park.I came out of the fourth of six as he was jut really passing the first.
I checked in my rear mirror after I'd passed him and he was heading to the sixth where McD's is so he passed at least four entrances where other cars had or could have pulled out overshooting the white life as it is a relatively narrow access road.
Regardless of breaking the law by allowing a passenger to travel in hte vehicle not wearing a seat restraint, he was allowing someone - namely the child - to put themselves at risk and did not make them aware of the risk and take all reasonable steps to protect the child.

There was immediate potential risk of the vehicle having to brake suddenly causing the child to be thrown forward either into the edge of the sunroof or even out of the sunroof onto the road.

Now YOU tell me how she was not at risk...

 

[Norm]

Now YOU tell me how she was not at risk...

I didn't say that. I asked what actual increased level of risk you feel she was facing. In % terms or however you want to phrase it.

Not some mythological "potential" risk because there is a potential risk from everything we do, and we'll leave the stereotypes aside for the moment. I'm interested, even intrigued, to know what increased level of risk you actually think she was facing from her actions to get you and others so frothy.

 

[Mad Doug Biker]

he can't account for the other idiots who might cause him to stand on his brakes....

*Looks around to make sure nobody is within earshot*

I know! I mean, what if he met a *whispers* cyclist?

 

[ColinJ]

We used to do it often when we were kids as did many others .... we also used to be driven round in vans with the sliding doors open and no safety belts ... I don't recall lots of maimed kids ....

Er ...

UK, 1950
Total cars: Approx 3 million
Deaths on roads: 5,012
Serious injuries ('maiming'?) on roads: 49,000

UK, 2010
Total cars: Approx 30 million
Deaths on roads: 1,857
Serious injuries ('maiming'?) on roads: 20,803

I'm guessing those who worry about sudden braking wouldn't have too many worries about the millions of people who travel standing on a tube train or on Network Rail without seatbelts.

It is pretty rare for other trains to suddenly pull out in front of yours!

The man who used to give me a lift to work was pretty serious about seat belts and loose objects in cars. His wife had been driving their son back from the shops and had apparently placed a bag of shopping on the rear parcel shelf. A car came shooting out of a side road and she smashed into the side of it. The contents of the shopping bag flew forwards, hitting both her and the boy on the back of their heads. She died instantly. The boy was in a coma for a month, and suffered permanent brain damage.

Just saying, like ...

 

[swee'pea99]

Cycling back from Richmond Park t'other day I passed a car going t'other way with two girls, 10 +/-, standing just as you describe. They had beaming smiles, and we exchanged happy waves.

No-one goes out of their way to endanger their kids. But no-one grows up and looks back fondly on the day they were sitting safely strapped in...

 

[Norm]

It is pretty rare for other trains to suddenly pull out in front of yours!

Not really, not if you travel regularly in London and certainly not if you've worked on the Underground.

The man who used to give me a lift to work was pretty serious about seat belts and loose objects in cars. His wife had been driving their son back from the shops and had apparently placed a bag of shopping on the rear parcel shelf. A car came shooting out of a side road and she smashed into the side of it. The contents of the shopping bag flew forwards, hitting both her and the boy on the back of their heads. She died instantly. The boy was in a coma for a month, and suffered permanent brain damage.

Just saying, like ...

So one person knew someone who knew someone...

I know far more people who have been injured on bikes than in cars, I know someone who is a quadriplegic after hitting a tree root wrongly, I know three who have died on motorbikes, I know two who have been hospitalised through alcohol, the only time I've been in hospital was after paintballing, and I know two others hospitalised through that.

My son remembers each time he's been on the back of my motorbike, but he would have forgotten this mornings run in the car by the time he walked through the gates. Riding in the back of a Land Rover with my (then 11 year old) son driving has a huge risk, but I'll take that any day and so will he and screw the H&S yellowcoats.

Which is the point. All this stuff is risky (especially paint-balling, I met Mrs Norm doing that!) but it's all the good bits in life. It's all, as swee'pea says, the stuff that we remember. We could pass another Friday night in front of the TV or out on our bikes. However much we might not like it, cycling has a higher risk but we still do it.

 

[classic33]

And sitting in the back of Land Rovers (which had loaded shotguns in them too!) and on the top of 15' hay trailers and three up in tractors with no roll-over hoops and...

I've been on ones where we had to use poles to pass the telelephone wires over the load. The difference being that the load was properly secured & the driver was fully aware of what could happen. As was I.

 

[Mad Doug Biker]

Not really, not if you travel regularly in London and certainly not if you've worked on the Underground.

Trains tend to break considerably less quickly though, and besides, I thought they had these things called points, signals and TPWS, I didn't realise that you could get SMIDSYs, Train Rage, small collisions, and drivers trying to get each other's insurance details......

This being Thames Valley, are the drivers of HSTs like BMW and Audi drivers? Do they think they are 'it' and bully the drivers of all the other trains to get out of their way, especially those horrible freight trains getting in everyone's road? Do they?

Trains with steering wheels anyone?

 

[Globalti]

This happened in Kwazulu Natal, South Africa:

 

[TonyEnjoyD]

I didn't say that. I asked what actual increased level of risk you feel she was facing. In % terms or however you want to phrase it.

Not some mythological "potential" risk because there is a potential risk from everything we do, and we'll leave the stereotypes aside for the moment. I'm interested, even intrigued, to know what increased level of risk you actually think she was facing from her actions to get you and others so frothy.

Norm, in my opinion, if you are unable to see the inherent level of risk in a small child standing unsecrured in a 1.5 tonne vehicle travelling at 20 mph with her upper third of her body out of the sunroof then no amount af rationalisation will sway you.
You have and will retain your opinion regardless of any rationale that me or others would give, and you are entitled to those opinions.

Go and talk to a traffic police officer or paramedic about what they deal with and give them the scenario.....

With regard to risk, we all take calculated risks every day and 99.999999% pay off -the others don't.
I work in risk management and regularly have to investigate accidents, and very few are down to the person, the root causes are usually in the failings of the persons responsible for the management of the risk not doing so. In my opinion, the parent in this case.

 

[Silver Fox]

Cycling back from Richmond Park t'other day I passed a car going t'other way with two girls, 10 +/-, standing just as you describe. They had beaming smiles, and we exchanged happy waves.

No-one goes out of their way to endanger their kids. But no-one grows up and looks back fondly on the day they were sitting safely strapped in...

In the event of a collision or even harsh braking, neither they or the parents would have beaming smiles as they were catapulted through the windscreen landing dead or seriuosly injured on the road having decapitated the driver / front seat pasenger.

But hey, not to worry, bad things only happen to other people.

 

[ASC1951]

I have three young children and would NEVER knowingly put them at risk by my actions or by inaction.

There again, there is a whole generation of children who risk adult obesity because their parents believe that the world is such a horrendously dangerous place that they are safest staying in doors in front of the telly.

Risk, and the ability to judge it, is an important part of childhood; and of the adulthood that that childhood creates. You cannot eliminate all risk, nor should you even if you could.

 

[Fnaar]

Back in early 70s, our 'record' in our Morris Oxford Estate (dad's first car) was my dad driving and 12 kids in the boot/back/front seats

Also, just had a retail idea... can you get 'nodding babies' (like nodding dogs, only babies) to put on the parcel shelf?