Team BKool CycleChat

[<Tommy>]

This is the weird thing for me. We complain of a lack of level playing field on bkol but zwift is the same. Longer you play the game the better the kit you get which gives you advantages over other riders. My 250 watts is therefore not going to beat someone else's 200 watts as they have a lighter, better, faster bike.

I know what you're saying Whorty but I don't think it's exactly the same. I don't know what the correlation is between kit / advantage given is. But to be fair at least everyone's playing with the same opportunity. The difference between all power meters is prob 1 or 2% max too. We haven't got a clue what the difference between bkool trainers is, or the difference between different trainer brands, tyre brands etc. It's all a big grey area!

 

[berty bassett]

This is the weird thing for me. We complain of a lack of level playing field on bkol but zwift is the same. Longer you play the game the better the kit you get which gives you advantages over other riders. My 250 watts is therefore not going to beat someone else's 200 watts as they have a lighter, better, faster bike.

unless you go on it more and have a better bike too ?
i wouldn't stand a chance agaist you on straights and downhills no matter what bike i use - likewise i dont think you could catch me on uphill just like bkool - but if you go on zwift more then get a lighter bike or more aero bike thenn we both stand a bit more chance
i dont think the boosts are used in races and to be honest a lot of the time i dont bother with them
bkool and zwift are very different but after the very poor attitude of the bkool help desk i refuse to give them any more money but thats just me burning bridges again

 

[bobinski]

The thing is the differences between bikes and wheel set up are are minimal. Zwift blog has a breakdown of the difference for each combination on each course, flat, hilly or mountainous. It is measurable. Honestly the differences are so small it barely raises a mention compared to concerns about weight doping especially in cat A and B races.
I never minded it. I knew it meant people were fractionally faster because they had benefited from riding on Zwift longer. I am now eligible to ride any bike combo but it never occurs to me to pick the slightly faster bike for the course. It's the same with power ups. Not fussed, rarely use them. At least i know they are there and others may use them. Not much difference to those infamous accelerations and time warps bkool used to have. I still bristle at one that allowed Bill to beat me towards the end of a race
Anyway this is all nit picking something the internet allows us all to do Some more than others.

The fact of the matter is that however gamified Zwift may be, bsim appears fundamentally less accurate and reliable a platform. It registers and broadcasts bonkers power based on cadence. It is closed to proper examination and evaluation with a power meter, and whilst initially that benefitted pro and classic users it is now benefitting (perversely) another brands trainers! It won't let you use a PM! At last in Zwift I know that someone riding with a PM, or a PM based turbo or a properly calibrated smart trainer will be putting out accurate watts and they will be accurately reflected in realistic speeds. Faster bike and wheels? Pfft!

Ps the difference in time between the 1st and 5th fastest bike over the hilly Watopia course of 18.4m is 16 seconds. 225w at 75kilos . That is
50m 52s
51m 08s

The slowest of these 5 can be unlocked at level 13 which is less than 1000km on Zwift.

measurable data in what is a game.

 

[CXRAndy]

Zwift is more accurate and there is a level playing field when a power meter is adopted. Bkool works fine when everyone is on a Bkool pro(ignoring the actual figures), the field is equal.

I wish Zwift would improve drafting effect, I experienced 7 miles of 1% descending with 3 others this week. I dragged the others down the slope working very hard in parts, flicked my elbow, slotted in and my HR dropped 4/5 beats instantly, the most fun I had all week, making the lighter riders work hard for once

I dont use power up, no keyboard to reach, that feature should be dropped. looking forward to seeing more on Zwift

 

[Whorty]

I know what you're saying Whorty but I don't think it's exactly the same. I don't know what the correlation is between kit / advantage given is. But to be fair at least everyone's playing with the same opportunity. The difference between all power meters is prob 1 or 2% max too. We haven't got a clue what the difference between bkool trainers is, or the difference between different trainer brands, tyre brands etc. It's all a big grey area!

I'm not quite sure that is the case ... everyone is not on a level playing field. Two riders, both same weight, both on same trainer, both with same power will have different speeds based on the kit they have in Zwift, which in itself is based on hold long you have been playing the game and the miles cycled. So not entirely a level playing field either. That's why on some races in Zwift the TT bikes are banned, as they give a speed advantage over other bikes (or at least they are supposed too).

Now I admit these are in game advantages, and if everyone had played the Zwift game long enough and cycled the same distance then all would be equal but this is not actually the case.

I'm not trying to defend BKool for its inequalities, I'm just saying that Zwift is also not an equal playing field so it's a bit disingenuous to critisize BKool for not being equal when Zwift is also not equal.

Take away all the gimicky stuff in Zwift, and put everyon on equal bikes, and use power meters then yes, Zwift may be more accurate ... but this is not how the Zwift game works.

Zwift is a big money machine, supported by a more professional corporation and sponsorship compared to BKool. Their PR machine ensures they have many more people playing the game. It's more appealing to the casual rider compared to BKool. It's successful ... but it's certainly not perfect.

 

[Whorty]

unless you go on it more and have a better bike too ?
i wouldn't stand a chance agaist you on straights and downhills no matter what bike i use - likewise i dont think you could catch me on uphill just like bkool - but if you go on zwift more then get a lighter bike or more aero bike thenn we both stand a bit more chance
i dont think the boosts are used in races and to be honest a lot of the time i dont bother with them
bkool and zwift are very different but after the very poor attitude of the bkool help desk i refuse to give them any more money but thats just me burning bridges again

No, I get that and that is a perfectly reasonable decision and you'r right to feel that way. I wouldn't blame Tommy either for dumping BKool for teh same reason. I'd likely do the same if they treated me the same but thankfully I don't have any dealings with them. BKool support is poor at best.

Zwift has a much better support and social network. That can't be denied. Zwift can be fun, as can Bkool. I just think it's a bit disingenuous when some (sorry Bob) say Bkool is unequal but Zwift isn't when in fact Zwift also has advantages that can be used that are not pure power/weight ratio. I have no problem with Zwift doing that, and it's a good gimick to 'earn' a better, faster, more flash bike, but let's not pretend that this doesn't give an advantage over others who haven't played in Zwift as long.

 

[bobinski]

I'm not quite sure that is the case ... everyone is not on a level playing field. Two riders, both same weight, both on same trainer, both with same power will have different speeds based on the kit they have in Zwift, which in itself is based on hold long you have been playing the game and the miles cycled. So not entirely a level playing field either. That's why on some races in Zwift the TT bikes are banned, as they give a speed advantage over other bikes (or at least they are supposed too).

Now I admit these are in game advantages, and if everyone had played the Zwift game long enough and cycled the same distance then all would be equal but this is not actually the case.

I'm not trying to defend BKool for its inequalities, I'm just saying that Zwift is also not an equal playing field so it's a bit disingenuous to critisize BKool for not being equal when Zwift is also not equal.

Take away all the gimicky stuff in Zwift, and put everyon on equal bikes, and use power meters then yes, Zwift may be more accurate ... but this is not how the Zwift game works.

Zwift is a big money machine, supported by a more professional corporation and sponsorship compared to BKool. Their PR machine ensures they have many more people playing the game. It's more appealing to the casual rider compared to BKool. It's successful ... but it's certainly not perfect.

Nothing in life is perfect which is why it is important to bring scale and proportion to bear.
Zwift started after bkool who have only themselves to blame for how things stand now. As I have said before I would rather support the underdog than the behemoth that Zwift may become but much of bsim is indefensible- and I am a defence lawyer! All those advantages, huge number of course etc are not enough if the sim is broken. They should fix it and I will be back.

16 seconds over nearly 20 miles I can live with.

Ps
We should be arguing this over beers Whorty so

 

[CXRAndy]

I would say the racing on Zwift is more attractive, due to numbers of riders per race and its policed pretty well, with odd results being discarded almost immediately. Bkool has the feature of being able to train on a specific hill/route to get an idea of what you will experience in real life-eg Mont Ventoux for me. There are others now, RGT/Big Ring. I wish Bkool would allow PM to be added to setup to control the pro unit.

 

[Whorty]

The thing is the differences between bikes and wheel set up are are minimal. Zwift blog has a breakdown of the difference for each combination on each course, flat, hilly or mountainous. It is measurable. Honestly the differences are so small it barely raises a mention compared to concerns about weight doping especially in cat A and B races.
I never minded it. I knew it meant people were fractionally faster because they had benefited from riding on Zwift longer. I am now eligible to ride any bike combo but it never occurs to me to pick the slightly faster bike for the course. It's the same with power ups. Not fussed, rarely use them. At least i know they are there and others may use them. Not much difference to those infamous accelerations and time warps bkool used to have. I still bristle at one that allowed Bill to beat me towards the end of a race
Anyway this is all nit picking something the internet allows us all to do Some more than others.

The fact of the matter is that however gamified Zwift may be, bsim appears fundamentally less accurate and reliable a platform. It registers and broadcasts bonkers power based on cadence. It is closed to proper examination and evaluation with a power meter, and whilst initially that benefitted pro and classic users it is now benefitting (perversely) another brands trainers! It won't let you use a PM! At last in Zwift I know that someone riding with a PM, or a PM based turbo or a properly calibrated smart trainer will be putting out accurate watts and they will be accurately reflected in realistic speeds. Faster bike and wheels? Pfft!

Ps the difference in time between the 1st and 5th fastest bike over the hilly Watopia course of 18.4m is 16 seconds. 225w at 75kilos . That is
50m 52s
51m 08s

The slowest of these 5 can be unlocked at level 13 which is less than 1000km on Zwift.

measurable data in what is a game.

I guess at the end of the day it depends what we all ride for. The problems in BSIM don't bother me as I'm only riding to get/stay fit. The racing keeps me interested, but whether I win or lose is not important.

Zwift is fun ... mostly. And I'm sure I'll be there again in the future as BKool breathes its last, but it needs more courses, the choice to select what I ride rather than being dictated to, some real life courses too would be nice ... I mean, wouldn't it be good to climb Alpe or Mont Ventoux in Zwift?

 

[bobinski]

I guess at the end of the day it depends what we all ride for. The problems in BSIM don't bother me as I'm on riding to get/stay fit. The racing keeps me interested, but whether I win or lose is not important.

Zwift is fun ... mostly. And I'm sure I'll be there again in the future as BKool breathes its last, but it needs more courses, the choice to select what I ride rather than being dictated to, some real life courses too would be nice ... I mean, wouldn't it be good to climb Alpe or Mont Ventoux in Zwift?

Nope, I don't want to ride Zwift for Ventoux. That's what RGT will be for I actually like Zwift for its lack of real world courses and the accuracy of its gradients, lack of dead stops and worm holes etc.
Oh, and I have NEVER said Zwift is perfect. I have eyes and follow the fora elsewhere. It's better for MY needs. If I want to change course I choose through the add on.

Whorty, may YOUR virtual world rise up to meet you

 

[<Tommy>]

I think the obvious difference though Whorty as Bob showed, is that in zwift you can actually measure these things. In bkool it's a guessing game.

Zwift and bkool seem quite different and I think whatever platform you choose is obviously dependent on what you want and the compromises you're willing to make.

I didn't take part in the summer cup but hoesntly it just shows all of bkools flaws.

 

[bobinski]

Just for balance;

Yesterday on my 75km base builder I had trouble staying in the draft or rather getting into it. For long periods I was stuck next to riders with the message suggesting I should get in the draft and although I was close enough it wouldn't bring me in. I had to slow and drop in behind or wait for someone to overtake me and then I could catch their draft.

And if you cannot get into or stay in draft at 40kph and just under 3w then BOOM they are gone. 4.5-5w to get back on.

 

[Whorty]

I think the obvious difference though Whorty as Bob showed, is that in zwift you can actually measure these things. In bkool it's a guessing game.

Zwift and bkool seem quite different and I think whatever platform you choose is obviously dependent on what you want and the compromises you're willing to make.

I didn't take part in the summer cup but hoesntly it just shows all of bkools flaws.

And not just their flaws ... but also their unwillingness to fix problems when they arise. The Elite bug is so obvious it's a joke, but as a joke it shouldn't be taken too seriously. Shame they can't fix it but it doesn't stop my enjoyment. Things like this will be the end of them though and they will only have themselves to blame. .

 

[LBHIFI]

My new Bkool Pro seems to produce more accurate watts on Bsim - even had sessions giving me less avg. than my power meter. But it is not consistent and some sessions has been 30 watts over.

But I see a lot of session on Bkool where riders average well beyond 400 watts for long periods. If that was real they would be challenging Wiggins hour record in the real world, so I'm pretty sure that is not for real - even if 30 of those watts were extra Bkool watts.

So I don't think racing is on equal terms, even between Bkool turbos.

However, I am going to continiue to try and get some BKool racing going this winter. I don't mind being demoted if I can just get some consistancy going. I can always go to Zwift when I want some accuracy .

 

[MasterDabber]

It's always interesting to see VR Strava segments where they are common to both Bkool and BigRingVR... the KOMs and top positions seem to be dominated by those who have ridden a Bkool ride covering the segment. Many of those KOM times are just plain crazy.

As a check and balance. I have a Bkool Pro and have created quite a few rides of my own (video + tcx) using BigRingVR. I've then created Strava segments which mirror some of the same segments which exist on the real rides. My times on those segments are very similar and consistent across the real and virtual.