Team BKool CycleChat

[Rob_H]

We ideally need to find a suitable variable to apply dependant on average gradient, and make it so that all vertex rides could be held for approval so the variable could be applied (for example stopping just before the end).

Thanks @BILL S . So I understand, could you explain what is the issue with the Vortex? I know it can only simulate a climb of 7%, but my understanding was that it would make it easier to pedal, but you would be slower on that section, so no different to changing down a gear or 2. I'd imagine that this could be proven by riding some gentler constant climbs? As you say, a few stages and some more data should help to diagnoes the problem.

I also just spoke to a friend who ordered a BKool, so In a few weeks I can hopefully ride that on the same stage and see what difference it makes, I guess that would be the best comparison.

 

[BILL S]

Thanks @BILL S . So I understand, could you explain what is the issue with the Vortex? I know it can only simulate a climb of 7%, but my understanding was that it would make it easier to pedal, but you would be slower on that section, so no different to changing down a gear or 2. I'd imagine that this could be proven by riding some gentler constant climbs? As you say, a few stages and some more data should help to diagnoes the problem.

I also just spoke to a friend who ordered a BKool, so In a few weeks I can hopefully ride that on the same stage and see what difference it makes, I guess that would be the best comparison.

No worries Rob. We'll find or make a solution somehow.
I don't know the actual issue with the Vortex but I do know that it goes very fast on a climb. Ryans speed up Alpe d'Huez is approximately 43 mins if I remember correctly. He is approximately the same fitness level as you according to bkool and making similar power. I notice that your time up D'Huez is 30 mins and a few seconds. That's rather a big difference, and I guess is even more different than the latest goat stage due to the additional steepness of D'Huez.
And as you say, riding your friends bkool should be a good comparison.

 

[gbrown]

Thanks @BILL S . So I understand, could you explain what is the issue with the Vortex? I know it can only simulate a climb of 7%, but my understanding was that it would make it easier to pedal, but you would be slower on that section, so no different to changing down a gear or 2. I'd imagine that this could be proven by riding some gentler constant climbs? As you say, a few stages and some more data should help to diagnoes the problem.

I also just spoke to a friend who ordered a BKool, so In a few weeks I can hopefully ride that on the same stage and see what difference it makes, I guess that would be the best comparison.

Pretty sure that the Bkool software doesn't compensate in anyway for the trainers exceeding their maximum resistance and being too easy to pedal, it would be quite hard to do as it depends on the type of trainer, the weight of the rider, the gradient of the slope, the speed and momentum on the slope, etc..

My presumption is that they use their simulation algorithms to decide what resistance is required and request the smart turbo provide that amount of resistance, then the speed at which the trainer is being driven is measured. But if the maximum resistance is exceeded this speed can be increased with minimal extra effort and the software has no way to know where the resistance maxed out or by how much you are over driving the trainer.

When you say that the Vortex can simulate a climb of 7%, that is dependant on the riders weight. A heavy rider would require much more resistance to simulate 7% than a light rider. So the 7% figure is just an approximation, and the first rule of marketing would suggest that it is quoted for a light rider. Therefore an above average weight rider would find it unlikely to be able to simulate 7%, for them the maximum would be a lower figure. Bkool claim UP TO 20% for their Pro but most of us know that they run out of resistance nearer to half that figure!

Geoff

 

[gbrown]

Hi Rob.
Can we find a variable (x) that the vertex riders time could be multiplied by dependent on the average gradient where x could be <, =, or > 1. Any mathematical wizards out there who could figure this out if we can gather the necessary data?

You'd need to factor in the riders weight, as this has a huge effect on the resistance required for gradient simulation, and therefore how much advantage a rider gets by using one trainer over another. I would imagine it gets very complicated, as at one weight you may find both types of trainer are limited (at different gradients), at another only one and if light enough, neither are limited.

Geoff

 

[BILL S]

You'd need to factor in the riders weight, as this has a huge effect on the resistance required for gradient simulation, and therefore how much advantage a rider gets by using one trainer over another. I would imagine it gets very complicated, as at one weight you may find both types of trainer are limited (at different gradients), at another only one and if light enough, neither are limited.

Geoff

All true I'm sure Geoff, however I think we could pick our most extreme example (Rob H) and use the figure which is most applicable to him on any given gradient. I don't think we've had any real issues before but with the kind of w/kg Rob is making he appears to have broken out of the zone where the trainers are compatible enough to soak up the differences.

 

[Rob_H]

You'd need to factor in the riders weight, as this has a huge effect on the resistance required for gradient simulation.
Geoff

This was one of the considerations I had when purchasing the Vortex. I'm 67kg. I read somewhere that the 7% was 75kg (rider and bike) so I thought I'd be good with the Vortex.

 

[AAAC 76C]

You'd need to factor in the riders weight, as this has a huge effect on the resistance required for gradient simulation, and therefore how much advantage a rider gets by using one trainer over another. I would imagine it gets very complicated, as at one weight you may find both types of trainer are limited (at different gradients), at another only one and if light enough, neither are limited.

Geoff

Geoff, my assumption is that the resistance regarding the power read out would be the limitation and I believe the Classic is limited to 1200 watts.
This is because it is effectively a magnetic brake and therefore the max braking effect is when the magnets are 100% exposed to the flywheel at the circumferance of the flywheel, any futher in and the breaking effect will be reduce unless the magnets move closer to the flywheel as they move toward the centre.
An alogorithimn is used to position the magnets and create the required resitance for your forward speed and vertical speed.
Forgetting descending, which BKools don't do well because they have no motor.
Forward speed resistance is nearly all as a result of the calculated drag and weight has very little impact.
Your vertical speed is litteraly all to do with weight.
Calculating both as vectors will give you the total restance required to overcome your forward and vertical speed and is displayed in Watts. Unless the algorithmn limits are inside of the power required to go uphill toward the vertical and the foward limits are inside of say 70mph then I see no reason why any trainer cannot set resistance for any slope and speed up to the maximum watts (i.e. resistance) that can be generated and therefore the limitation on the Vortex is perhaps not 7% but would equate too a average weight rider riding at and average sustained power which ends up equating to 7% ish.
Saying that I don't know how the vortex generates drag as may trainers have a fan that assists in creating the V squared drag (i.e.) forward speed and then a second resistance creator like the magnets on the BKool.

 

[Baldo Mero]

All true I'm sure Geoff, however I think we could pick our most extreme example (Rob H) and use the figure which is most applicable to him on any given gradient. I don't think we've had any real issues before but with the kind of w/kg Rob is making he appears to have broken out of the zone where the trainers are compatible enough to soak up the differences.

Sorry to insist, but as an ultralight rider with a vortex my main issue is lack of downhill speed boost and ability to coast. You see, with the vortex the speed is the actual wheel speed reported by the trainer, whereas with the bkool this speed is multiplied by a factor depending on the rider weight and down slope. The result is that even if vortex riders had a slight advantage due to lack of resistance simulating >7% uphill (which I doubt), the disadvantage on the downs overcompensates. Bkool virtual speed on a descent is >60-70 kmh whereas on a vortex it is the same that you can make on the flats, in my case about 40kmh pedalling hard and not resting. A vortex rider easily gives 1 min per min, all-out, to any bkool rider coasting. I doubt that I can get to my favor a few seconds per minute on the steepest climbs against a bkool rider of similar weight and condition.

So,.... if you manage to find the formula to slow us on the climbs, don't forget to speed us up on the downs!

 

[Baldo Mero]

I don't quite understand the way that the classification on the leagues is calculated. Apparently the ranking position considers the total time on all the stages ridden, but how are the riders that didn't complete all the stages ranked? it seems that there are a few of these on the top. Is there a scoring system that I am missing?

 

[berty bassett]

I don't quite understand the way that the classification on the leagues is calculated. Apparently the ranking position considers the total time on all the stages ridden, but how are the riders that didn't complete all the stages ranked? it seems that there are a few of these on the top. Is there a scoring system that I am missing?

i wanted to ask the same question but didnt know how to word it - i didnt know if i had missed some results somewhere

 

[kipster]

I don't quite understand the way that the classification on the leagues is calculated. Apparently the ranking position considers the total time on all the stages ridden, but how are the riders that didn't complete all the stages ranked? it seems that there are a few of these on the top. Is there a scoring system that I am missing?

If you don't complete a stage it penalises you with the slowest riders time (for the missed stage) plus a percentage of that time, something like 10% but not sure of the exact addition.

 

[JLaw]

Whee. Good to be back on the bike after a few weeks off. Did a gentle ride up American Fork Canyon as a Moose preview. 11 miles, 3000ft vertical. Took it real easy and clocked in at 1:40-ish. So I suspect when it's live for the Moose league many folks will be pushing 1:15 or better.

I've never climbed that canyon before -- I've always climbed from the other side and come down American Fork as part of the Alpine loop. 3d terrain is roughly correct. Good to see sheep outnumber the cows which is closer to reality. Sadly we're not likely to see a moose or bear in the simulator, but they are relatively common up there.

I'm planning to climb the other side up past the ski resort and vacation house tomorrow.

 

[Rob_H]

No worries Rob. We'll find or make a solution somehow.
I don't know the actual issue with the Vortex but I do know that it goes very fast on a climb. Ryans speed up Alpe d'Huez is approximately 43 mins if I remember correctly. He is approximately the same fitness level as you according to bkool and making similar power. I notice that your time up D'Huez is 30 mins and a few seconds. That's rather a big difference, and I guess is even more different than the latest goat stage due to the additional steepness of D'Huez.
And as you say, riding your friends bkool should be a good comparison.

@BILL S - Do you have a link to Ryan's effort? Maybe we can analyse that data to see if a specific part of the climb I was a lot quicker.

 

[bridgy]

If you don't complete a stage it penalises you with the slowest riders time (for the missed stage) plus a percentage of that time, something like 10% but not sure of the exact addition.

It's the slowest rider's time plus 5% that you're given if you miss a stage according to Bkool - http://www.bkool.com/help/leagues

 

[gbrown]

Sorry to insist, but as an ultralight rider with a vortex my main issue is lack of downhill speed boost and ability to coast. You see, with the vortex the speed is the actual wheel speed reported by the trainer, whereas with the bkool this speed is multiplied by a factor depending on the rider weight and down slope. The result is that even if vortex riders had a slight advantage due to lack of resistance simulating >7% uphill (which I doubt), the disadvantage on the downs overcompensates. Bkool virtual speed on a descent is >60-70 kmh whereas on a vortex it is the same that you can make on the flats, in my case about 40kmh pedalling hard and not resting. A vortex rider easily gives 1 min per min, all-out, to any bkool rider coasting. I doubt that I can get to my favor a few seconds per minute on the steepest climbs against a bkool rider of similar weight and condition.

So,.... if you manage to find the formula to slow us on the climbs, don't forget to speed us up on the downs!

No argument from me, changing from a Bkool Pro to a KICKR the lack of coasting downhill is a killer, and I went from being quite competitive on the chaingang stages to no chance of keeping up!

The KICKR, having much greater max resistance than the the Bkool Pro, also put me at a disadvantage on the climbs, and since it was less generous everywhere, I was even at a disadvantage on the flat. So hampered slightly on the flat, more on the steep climbs and killed on the descents. This is why I always advise to get a Bkool Pro if the multi-player riders are your priority!

Anyone want to buy a barely used KICKR at a good discount off the new price?

Geoff