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AAAC 76C

Large Member
Location
LIVING THE DREAM
Are the speed and power calculated separately or are they a function of one another?

I do not think that speed is calculated by BKool other than that it is, I beleive, the circumferencial velocity of the turbo roller calculated by magnetic interupters similar to a cadence meter. There are 4 magnets on the turbo flywheel which obviously pass by a sensor and create a 4 per rev signal. I have confrimed this when was playing with my turbo the other day when I installed the flywheel back to front and no speed output was displayed. Form this 4 per rev signal and the known circumferance of the turbo roller your speed will be very acurate regardless of wheel diameters or anything else. The only ting that could go wrong is to get the calculation or the SW output wrong but that is so simplistic I very much doubt it.

So this is what I think happens but there is a bit of chicken and egg in this.
The Session course in on you PC and it comminicates with your trainer by giving it such information as weight, windspeed (relative to your heading), road surface drag (remember those sandy coloured bits that sap your strength) and slope.
You start moving and your turbo generates a speed signal from actual speed and tells the PC how fast you are moving.

From this the PC knows where you are on the course and transmits the revised relative windspeed, road surface and slope to your turbo (lets call these the conditions).

Whilst this is all going on your turbo is using the conditions data to set the required resistance for the conditions and your speed. This cycle continues at what ever the 'refresh rate' is and having watched the magnets move whilst messing with my turbo it is pretty instantanious.

I therefore summise that the one true thing you are seeing on the screen is your speed and the watts is a pure calculation but should be directly propotional to the resistance set and your speed. The watts reading is probably generated by the Trainer firmware and not your PC but like trainers should give like watts for the same conditions (see further down for the explaniation of the conditions).

As the BKool firmware has moved on they have changed the way the turbo reacts to the conditions signal sent by the PC and in particular the rate at which the resistance is changed as a result of slope change and for sure the later firmware, which I cannot get because of a PCB fault, delays the onset of the slope resistance more than it was before giving that Pro-Slingshot. This is supposed to replicate your inertia but I think they have got it wrong.

Regarding descending, as we have no motor to drive the back wheel at the descent speed relative to the conditions plus the acceleration due to gravity, they calculated your descending speed which as many has said turns the speed blue. When the speed is blue then the speed is no longer an actual representation of the speed of your turbo roller and so, I for one, can pedal at a reasonably low cadence relative to my ground speed and still lay down some power however as suggested until your actual turbo speed exceeds the blue value the speed figures stay blue.

Now for some theory.
Regarding the sprint, rest, sprint method:
It is possible that either the delay in the reaction of the increase in resistance by both the movement of the magnets and the build up of the eddy currents to induce the drag you can gain speed quicker than you should and thus cover more distance in a shorter time for your effort.
There is also a possibility that the built in lag in the firmware to make transitions more 'lifelike' also retard the rate of the onset of resistance thus adding to your ability to accelerate faster than you should thus again covering more distance in given time.
If however the reduction in restistance is more instantaneous then you would not loose the afore mentioned advantage in your 'rest' phase and the lower you drop your speed in this phase the longer the lag of the build up of resistance on your subsequent acceleration phase therefore you are able obtain an unreal 'advantage' using this method and hence the lower average watts. If during this phase your deceleration is also falsely reduced then further advantage is gained.
I say unreal because it is fact that the most efficent way to get from A to B on a constant slope, be it flat or steep, is with a constant effort. Please don't ask me to explain why this is because I have forgotten the physics but it is probably due to the law that governs the effort required to accelerate a rotating mass has a square in it blah blah blah.
In real life this does not work 100% when the conditions vary but it remains close enough to generalise.

I have no bones with anyone who may be unwitingly using this method as I personnaly am not built to do this and it totally blows me out constantly changing as I am more of a Wiggins than a Contador all be not quite at thier level in anything (and particular in income). I am also sure that this constant variation in output is a really good workout which is why we are doing this in the first place, is it not!

Win or lose I am thouroghly enjoying the competion but if you want reality then there is no better way of getting that than 'reality' as opposed to virtual.
However I would prefer it if we were all a bit more 'matched' in how our trainers react regardless of any minor deviations in our abiliity to generate speed for the same effort.

But as a buisness BKool may need to be on thier guard if there is a growing trend for folks to migrate to the likes of Zwift and in doing so open up the opportunity for individuals to replace thier trainers with other Suppliers products.
If everyone on this forum and hence the current BKool groups went across to Zwift I would probably follow suite and to do so, as I cannot upgrade the firmware on my Classic, I may well look at another product other than one of BKools in order to enable this.

PS: Roll on Saturday' Chaingang as I have decided that as the last league was won on 15 seconds I cannot afford to give away 1 min 30.
 
Last edited:

BILL S

Guru
Location
London
bill the last mountain goat ride is wrong can u delete it or amend it when I do it again with the new time I'm far from a strong climber and no way I would beat you but I'm not to bad on the flattish rides (not at ur level) ive been through my history and the watts seam to have started to drop around mid November but in the real world I'm still improving. I would like to monitor my bkool ride more accurately and with this watts issue it make that difficult
No need for deleting it Rob. If you want, you can do the next league ride by challenging someone's ghost which should help to tell you if you're at the right speed or not. Then if you think you've gone too fast you can cut the ride short just before the end and we can try to work out an adjustment.
 

BILL S

Guru
Location
London
I do not think that speed is calculated by BKool other than that it is, I beleive, the circumferencial velocity of the turbo roller calculated by magnetic interupters similar to a cadence meter. There are 4 magnets on the turbo flywheel which obviously pass by a sensor and create a 4 per rev signal. I have confrimed this when was playing with my turbo the other day when I installed the flywheel back to front and no speed output was displayed. Form this 4 per rev signal and the know circumferance of the turbo roller your speed will be very acurate regardless of wheel diameters or anything else. The only ting that could go wrong is to get the calculation or the SW output wrong but that is so simplistic I very much doubt it.

So this is what I think happens but there is a bit of chicken and egg in this.
The Session course in on you PC and it comminicates with your trainer by giving it such information as weight, windspeed (relative to your heading), road surface drag (remember those sandy coloured bits that sap your strength) and slope.
You start moving and your turbo generates a speed signal from actual speed and tells the PC how fast you are moving.

From this the PC knows where you are on the course and transmits the revised relative windspeed, road surface and slope to your turbo (lets call these the conditions).

Whilst this is all going on your turbo is using the conditions data to set the required resistance for the conditions and your speed. This cycle continues at what ever the 'refresh rate' is and now having watched the magnets move whilst messing with my turbo it is pretty instantanious.

I therefore summise that the one true thing you are seeing on the screen is your speed but the watts is a pure calculation but should be directly propotional to the resistance set and your speed.

As the BKool firmware has moved on they have changed the way the turbo reacts to the conditions signal sent by the PC and in particular the rate at which the resistance is changed as a result of slope change and for sure the later firmware, which I cannot get because of a PCB fault, delays the onset of the slope resistance more than it was before givining that Pro-Slingshot. This is supposed to replicate your inertia but I think they have got it wrong.

Regarding descending, as we have no motor to drive the back wheel at a descent speed relative to the conditions and the accleration as a result of gravity, they have calculated your descending speed which as many has said turns the speed blue. When the speed is blue then the speed is no longer an actual representation of the speed of you turbo roller and so, I for one, can pedal at a reasonably low cadence relative to my ground speed and still lay down some power however as suggested until your actual turbo speed exceeds the blue value the speed figures stay blue.

Now for some theory.
Regarding the sprint, rest, sprint method:
It is possible that either the delay in the reaction of the increase in resistance of both the movement of the magnets and the build up of the eddy currents to induce the drag you can gain speed quicker than you should and thus cover more distance in a shorter time for your effort.
There is also a possibility that the built in lag in the firmware to make transitions more 'lifelike' also retard the rate of the onset of resistance thus adding to your ability to accelerate faster than you should thus again covering more distance in given time.
If however the reduction in restistance is more instantaneous then you would not loose the afore mentioned advantage in your 'rest' phase and the lower you drop your speed in this phase the longer the lag of the build up of resistance on your subsequent acceleration phase therefore you are able obtain an unreal 'advantage' using this method and hence the lower average watts.
I say unreal because it is fact that the most efficent way to get from A to B on a constant slope, be it flat or steep, is with a constant effort. Please don't ask me to explain why this is because I have forgotten the physics but is probably due to the law that governs the effort required to acclerate a rotating mass has a square in it blah blah blah.
In real life this does not work 100% when the conditions vary but it remains close enough to generalise.

I have no bones with anyone who may be unwitingly using this method as I personnaly am not built to do this and it totally blows me out constantly changing as I am more of a Wiggins than a Contador all be not quite at thier level in anything (and particular inn income). I am also sure that this constant variation in outout in a really good workout which is why we are doing tis in the first place, is it not!

Win or lose I am thouroghly enjoying the competion but if you want reality then there is not better way of getting that than 'reality' as opposed to virtual.
However I would prefer it if we were all a bit more 'matched' in how are trainers react regardless of any minor deviations in our abiliity to generate speed for a given effort.

But as a buisness BKool may need to be on thier guard if there is a trend setting in for folks to migrate to the likes of Zwift and in doing so open up the opportunity for individuals to replace thier trainers with other Suppliers products.
If everyone on this forum and hence the current BKool groups went across to Zwift I would probably follow suite and to do so, as I cannot upgrade the firmware on my Classic, I may well look at another product other than one of BKools in order to enable this.

Roll on Saturday' chain gang as I have decided that as the last league was won on 15 seconds I cannot afford to gice away 1 min 30.

Thanks very much AAAC for the excellent explanation. Just right for me to be able to understand so it helped clear up some confusion in my mind about how these things operate. I also agree with your theories about the slingshot effects and how this can reduce the average power, and that it is the speed that is the one thing that is correct and that actually it's the generated resistance inaccuracies that is causing the problems.
Funny thing is that the updateable pro units can go faster with less power but the power readout is lower. I suspect that they are slower on a constant climb than the classics or older pro's.
Also agreed that it would be better if all our trainers acted the same and like you, I'd probably move from bkool if something recognisably better came along or if most on this forum moved to Zwift or other competitor.
 

berty bassett

Legendary Member
Location
I'boro
hang on a minute !!!
road surface drag (remember those sandy coloured bits that sap your strength)
i do all bkool stuff in cartoon mode as i like seeing a cartoon bike rather than an arrow - last night i was going through a lot of sand traps - what i thought was a little odd for the outskirts of Basingstoke ! Are you saying that i made life harder in my little shed of pain than it should be ? or was it poor road surface for all or does it make no difference really and i am being guilable again
 
The power outputs from Bkool can't be realistic.

Just before Christmas I tried to commute to work having not ridden for several years. I quickly came to the conclusion that it wasn't only that the bike that had become rusty, so it seemed had my legs. I needed to walk up most climbs and the the next day my legs ached so much I had to walk up stairs sideways. I bought the bkool in a vain attempt to get back riding again.

I've improved leaps and bounds in the last month with the bkool; but if bkool was realistic then riding up anything like alp d'heuz would involve at least one or two stops to admire the view (catch my breath :cry:).
 

AAAC 76C

Large Member
Location
LIVING THE DREAM
Thanks very much AAAC for the excellent explanation. Just right for me to be able to understand so it helped clear up some confusion in my mind about how these things operate. I also agree with your theories about the slingshot effects and how this can reduce the average power, and that it is the speed that is the one thing that is correct and that actually it's the generated resistance inaccuracies that is causing the problems.
Funny thing is that the updateable pro units can go faster with less power but the power readout is lower. I suspect that they are slower on a constant climb than the classics or older pro's.
Also agreed that it would be better if all our trainers acted the same and like you, I'd probably move from bkool if something recognisably better came along or if most on this forum moved to Zwift or other competitor.

There are quite a few mechanical issues that I have seen that would impact the resitance of like trainers but they are all associated with the possible effects of wear.
So long as the Trainer mechanical component physical and functional tolerance are tight then there should be little calibration required either by mechanical means of software tweaks. There after mechanical wear will have an impact so durability is a factor.

If all BKool trainers are built and calibrated to the same or similar tolerances then the rest is down to algorithmns.
If there are variences in the application of the algorithmns then you will get variance in the actual resistance set and perhaps the displayed power however other than the reaction to the change in the conditions I would find it hard to beleive there is any differnce in the actual algorithmns on all of the BKool trainers and they would probably similar in manner to the 'Bike Calculator'.
 

AAAC 76C

Large Member
Location
LIVING THE DREAM
The power outputs from Bkool can't be realistic.

Just before Christmas I tried to commute to work having not ridden for several years. I quickly came to the conclusion that it wasn't only that the bike that had become rusty, so it seemed had my legs. I needed to walk up most climbs and the the next day my legs ached so much I had to walk up stairs sideways. I bought the bkool in a vain attempt to get back riding again.

I've improved leaps and bounds in the last month with the bkool; but if bkool was realistic then riding up anything like alp d'heuz would involve at least one or two stops to admire the view (catch my breath :cry:).

I have never ridden a great Alp for real but riding one virtualy with no changing atmospheric conditions including air density and therefore oxygen levels will be totaly different.
I expect if I did climb one I would also stop a few times to admire the view.

Also something that has been eluded to by myself and others is that BKools have limitations to provide the correct resistance for a given weight, slope and speed.

If you are in the higher weight percentile for a cyclist then you will reach this limitation quicker particularly if you are going more slowly. It is therefore possible that your ride up the Alp was not at a true resistance for the virtual conditions in which you were riding.
 

IrishAl

** Full Time Pro **
Location
N.Ireland
The power outputs from Bkool can't be realistic.

Just before Christmas I tried to commute to work having not ridden for several years. I quickly came to the conclusion that it wasn't only that the bike that had become rusty, so it seemed had my legs. I needed to walk up most climbs and the the next day my legs ached so much I had to walk up stairs sideways. I bought the bkool in a vain attempt to get back riding again.

I've improved leaps and bounds in the last month with the bkool; but if bkool was realistic then riding up anything like alp d'heuz would involve at least one or two stops to admire the view (catch my breath :cry:).

Mate of mine uses a power meter - can't remember the brand - but reckons the Bkool is accurate to within 10%. Anecdotal I know but I'm sure others can maybe post their own direct experience. Downhill figures for sure maybe wrong but on an uphill and / or steady gradient I'd expect (or hope) it to be reasonably accurate.
 

Vertego

Just reflecting on the meaning of life.
Location
North Hampshire
I can't say that I understand the finer workings of the BKOOL Pro, but can anyone give a clue as to what's going on here?

A steady 9%+ incline, that rather 'hurt', dragging speed & cadence right down. Pushing through, BKOOL reported 1000+watts, and then jumped up to a speed of 82.5kph...I should be so lucky!

All I could do was stop pedalling. BSIM said 'do you want to end this session?' Started pedalling again and then things seemed to resume as normal.

Any ideas?

capture20160107223355525.png
 

RickB

professional procrastinator
Location
Norn Iron
Guys and girls, I contacted bkool about a week ago to tell them about trainer issues being discussed on here and gave them a link to this thread. They of course gave the reply that they will look into it.

Maybe everyone could email bkool to get their attention as I believe we are a large enough group to be a good representative sample of how the entire bkool community probably feels currently. State your issues with the software and different trainers and then point them to relevant discussions and post on here. There some quality material being typed on here that they need to see. :okay:
 

AAAC 76C

Large Member
Location
LIVING THE DREAM
Mate of mine uses a power meter - can't remember the brand - but reckons the Bkool is accurate to within 10%. Anecdotal I know but I'm sure others can maybe post their own direct experience. Downhill figures for sure maybe wrong but on an uphill and / or steady gradient I'd expect (or hope) it to be reasonably accurate.

Al, I don't doubt that the BKool Turbo's are on the whole accurate however the other day, driven by some discussion in the forum, I mechanicaly forced my BKool into maximum resistance.
At very slow speeds the Trainer offered little to no resistance due to my newly found knowledge of/that it uses magnetic eddy current braking to create the resistance.
In this condition at low speeds on steep slopes it will not be able to generate enough current to create the required resistance and hence the heavier you are the sooner you will hit this physical limitation and your effort will flat line even if the slope increases however your trainer may report watts that correspond to the indicated speed and slope.
 

AAAC 76C

Large Member
Location
LIVING THE DREAM
I can't say that I understand the finer workings of the BKOOL Pro, but can anyone give a clue as to what's going on here?

A steady 9%+ incline, that rather 'hurt', dragging speed & cadence right down. Pushing through, BKOOL reported 1000+watts, and then jumped up to a speed of 82.5kph...I should be so lucky!

All I could do was stop pedalling. BSIM said 'do you want to end this session?' Started pedalling again and then things seemed to resume as normal.

Any ideas?

View attachment 115288
You probably git hit from behind by a virtual French TV car or a Motor bike.
Just think yourself lucky to stay upright and enjoy the boost however there is probably a UCI rule on this and you should have been disqualified as this is obviously more wrong than taking an old mates front wheel but not as bad as a 1km sticky bottle.
I am sure Mr Port and Nibali will agree.
 
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