Team BKool CycleChat

[rob01792]

Cheers @theboxers I've got to average over 300 watts to get the next promotion - or lose some weight of course. It's not easy for us heavier chaps but we have to keep going.

@rob01792 is really flying now - we won't recognise him in his snazzy red outfit - we'll have to offer him a better deal to stay with Team White. Well done Rob that was some effort last night.

I'm off to take the dog for a walk, she thinks this retirement lark is great, but not sure Mrs GW agrees.

I give it everything I had on lastnight ride and since last Thursday ive only done the handicap ride so I'm well rested plus my weight is coming down nicely standing at 88kg now which all helps. when I started cycling last summer I was 100kg could only manage 20 miles out on the road where now I aim for 50 mile rides I'm hoping to drop down to 80 kg to do the dd next may

 

[theboxers]

I just redid the 1st Chain Gang stage, and what a world of difference it was compared to yesterday. I was pushing real big watts and at the end I was almost a minute ahead of Paul averaging 465 watt. I knew that Bill and I usually do very similar times, so I decided to wait at the line and cross it same time as Bill. Hope that's ok since I don't fancy doing that stage again.
My BePro's registered about 265 watt at that point, so that's a 200 watt difference .

. I have had differences, but not that different .

I think aug/sept stage 1 is unusual though. Because a large part of it is on the gravel/dirt/cobbles, or whatever you call it, you end up having to put out more power to get the same speed. I've had a similar situation with some of the off road sessions where higher power than normal is needed (confirmed with the vectors). Bkools adjustments for these sessions are needed. But, sometimes, the results are, how to put this, optomistic .

My variation between the 2 (vectors and bkool) at my registered normal weight is around 10-30watts higher on bkool, dependant on slope.

 

[theboxers]

I give it everything I had on lastnight ride and since last Thursday ive only done the handicap ride so I'm well rested plus my weight is coming down nicely standing at 88kg now which all helps. when I started cycling last summer I was 100kg could only manage 20 miles out on the road where now I aim for 50 mile rides I'm hoping to drop down to 80 kg to do the dd next may

Congratualations rob .

I'm down about 8kilo again since Christmas. I'm currently hovering around the 128 mark . I went through a stage where I added weight due to illness and not riding at the start of the year . Never quite got back up to my starting weight but it was close .

The upside is my power is still going up . I'm tending to do 2 - 2 1/2 hours on the trainer, warm-up (20-25 minutes), main (chaingang, summer cup, handicap and intervals mainly) and warm-down (20-25 minutes). I do this 3-4 times a week .

I just need to get my inner where he should be and my weight should come off fairly well.

 

[theboxers]

I've been thinking about getting a power meter recently. For me personally I like the idea of the pedal based ones so I can switch it between bikes more easily. I'd be very interested in other opinions.

It doesn't bother me that BKOOL isn't accurate so much as it doesn't seem to be consistent from ride to ride in its inaccuracy.

I have the Garmin Vectors. If they are installed correctly they work very well and provide a shed load of metrics to analyse . I got them for a good price when they were the only pedal based ones readilly available.

If I was looking now for a pedal system I'd probably go for the Powertap P1's. The Vectors can be very torque sensitive, not tight enough or too tight and the readings can be way out. The P1's are a, just do them up tight and go, system from what I've read. You don't get as many metrics but it could be said some are window dressing to an amateur.

The only downside to a pedal system is cost. There are 2 power meters to a set so double the cost of a stages or 4iiii left only crank system. There are the 'S' set ups with single pedals but that is pointless, IMO, it's cheaper to get a stages/4iiii etc crank instead.

The bepro is a nice setup but it not really pedal based, it sits between pedal and crank. Ask LBHIFI what he thinks of the ones he is using for install and ease of use.

If you can afford them, get a pedal based system. But I will say this Team SKY have only just started to use the Stages prototype left and right power meter cranks and none of the teams in the last TdF used a pedal based system iirc.

 

[bobinski]

Gents,

Looking at my bkool summer cup results it looks like I really have some work to do. By that I mean that I have to re-do some of the stages to get a better result as I am way down the field in a couple of them.
I am therefore looking for someone else to start the chaingang Saturday re-run tomorrow, while I try to claw back some valuable minutes in the summer cup.

Remember that this chaingang is two weeks per stage and there is also a short sprint to go with each main ride.

Sorry Bill, I cannot help. In fact I have to do this and hopefully a Summer cup ride in the morning or at least choose between the two.

 

[CXRAndy]

Andy is it that the kickr gives you a more realistic power reading, more realistic resistance, or a combination of the two? I thought the best combination for using the BKOOL software would be a BKOOL trainer with a seperate, more realistic power meter.

Yes the Kickr gives a realistic power reading from its own strain gauge. It also allows more resistance upto steeper inline percentages than the Bkool pro( I found the Bkool tops out around 9%, the Kickr 14%). For even playing field, yes the Bkool pro trainer and to keep accurate power logs, a separate power meter of whatever type.

 

[CXRAndy]

I just redid the 1st Chain Gang stage, and what a world of difference it was compared to yesterday. I was pushing real big watts and at the end I was almost a minute ahead of Paul averaging 465 watt. I knew that Bill and I usually do very similar times, so I decided to wait at the line and cross it same time as Bill. Hope that's ok since I don't fancy doing that stage again.
My BePro's registered about 265 watt at that point, so that's a 200 watt difference .

I found about 50-70 Watts difference Bkool pro and Kickr. I am more inclined to believe the Kickr for power

Looking at your 2nd attempt at the chaingang ride, from 4k to 10K marker, your power kept rising from 348W to 642W on flat terrain, cadence 99-110rpm almost constant heart rate. There is something not quite right. Maybe you guys are reaching the maximum resistance of the device and increase in cadence translates to huge power readings. Only you could describe how the resistance felt. I know when my Bkool Pro began to play up, resistance stayed constant and I was able to increase cadence and the power shot through the roof.

 

[<Tommy>]

I have the Garmin Vectors. If they are installed correctly they work very well and provide a shed load of metrics to analyse . I got them for a good price when they were the only pedal based ones readilly available.

If I was looking now for a pedal system I'd probably go for the Powertap P1's. The Vectors can be very torque sensitive, not tight enough or too tight and the readings can be way out. The P1's are a, just do them up tight and go, system from what I've read. You don't get as many metrics but it could be said some are window dressing to an amateur.

The only downside to a pedal system is cost. There are 2 power meters to a set so double the cost of a stages or 4iiii left only crank system. There are the 'S' set ups with single pedals but that is pointless, IMO, it's cheaper to get a stages/4iiii etc crank instead.

The bepro is a nice setup but it not really pedal based, it sits between pedal and crank. Ask LBHIFI what he thinks of the ones he is using for install and ease of use.

If you can afford them, get a pedal based system. But I will say this Team SKY have only just started to use the Stages prototype left and right power meter cranks and none of the teams in the last TdF used a pedal based system iirc.

Cheers TB

I've been doing a bit of reading today (way too much time on my hands). As you say the vectors seem somewhat susceptible to environmental factors. They also seem slightly heavier than their competitors. The bepro's seem very good value. Not much heavier than my look keo Carbon pedals and seem to give results. Apparently they take a bit of 'bedding in' before 100%, and are apparently also not the most robustly made. I'd be very interested in Lars' opinion after a few months use. Dc rainmaker has a good review and I generally like his approach to products. As you say, the powertap looks very good TB. I'll definately look at it.

I think a power meter will be my next major purchase but probably not until January so I'll have plenty of time to overthink it / get lots of opinions!

With regards the pro teams I wouldn't pay too much attention to what they're using as it's generally driven by their sponsors I think.

 

[LBHIFI]

I found about 50-70 Watts difference Bkool pro and Kickr. I am more inclined to believe the Kickr for power

That was about what I saw yesterday. Don't know why there's such a big difference today.

 

[LBHIFI]

If the weather allows it, I'll be taking them outdoors for a spin tomorrow. There's loads of space between my shoe and the pod, and I cut a piece of a MTB tube and pulled it over the pod to protect it:

 

[LBHIFI]

 

[<Tommy>]

I the weather allows it, I'll be taking them outdoors for a spin tomorrow. There's loads of space between my shoe and the pod, and I cut a piece of a MTB tube and pulled it over the pod to protect it:

View attachment 137920
View attachment 137921

Apparently the outer casing to the pod is cosmetic and if damaged won't effect performance. Obviously it's still a good idea to protect it though. How easy was it to set up Lars?

 

[<Tommy>]

This is the sealed unit inside the outer casing. (Picture courtesy of 'dc rainmaker')

 

[LBHIFI]

Apparently the outer casing to the pod is cosmetic and if damaged won't effect performance. Obviously it's still a good idea to protect it though. How easy was it to set up Lars?

Well, in the package there are some tools and stickers to make sure you align the pods right, and I used those on my shimano 105 crank Bkool/Commute bike, but there's already some stickers on my race (Campagnolo) bike, so I basicly just installed the pedals like normal pedals.

 

[AAAC 76C]

I found about 50-70 Watts difference Bkool pro and Kickr. I am more inclined to believe the Kickr for power

Looking at your 2nd attempt at the chaingang ride, from 4k to 10K marker, your power kept rising from 348W to 642W on flat terrain, cadence 99-110rpm almost constant heart rate. There is something not quite right. Maybe you guys are reaching the maximum resistance of the device and increase in cadence translates to huge power readings. Only you could describe how the resistance felt. I know when my Bkool Pro began to play up, resistance stayed constant and I was able to increase cadence and the power shot through the roof.

The guy who is doing runaway times in the Summer is running a cadence of 120 rpm when he is doing abnormally high speeds. This is no surprise if he is running a normal sized chainring cassette combo.
It could be that BKool has introduced a new anomaly in place of one of the old whilst trying to get rid of it.
I was going to say I will have to try and deliberately push my speed up on the levels to see if I reach a break point where extra speed does not get harder but is limited by the cadence you can sustain but then I realized that I am running old firmware so that would be pointless.
I often find myself pondering how the algorithms would work correctly.
Anyone who has used the online Bike Calculator should realize that instantaneous resistance settings are should be quite easy to deal with by using the same algorithm.
On bike calculator the watts is a sliding scale and you enter the other settings to show watts required.
If you made the gradient and speed the sliding scale then the wherever you put them you should get the watts i.e. the resistance setting required and the Turbo would set the magnet position accordingly.
The difficulty is getting the effect of kinetic energy correct, i.e. inertia etc.
If I sat with a competent mathematician for five minutes they could probably explain how it can be calculated but I can only come up with what you need to take into account rather than how to calculate it.
Basically to calculate the resistance for the current moment you need to understand what the conditions were on the last moment,where the moment is the refresh rate of the SW/FW,
Every time I tried to type what thought you needed to take into account I then found a flaw in my argument so I gave up again.