The Dambusters being re-made.

[yello]

Maybe it would be better to just omit the whole dog-codename thing.

Makes sense. It's not as if the dog is instrumental to the story (unless Disney are funding the movie! In which case, he'll probably fly the plane!). They could then make up another code word... what about 'coon'?

 

[Andy in Sig]

Yello and Yellow Fang,

I think you are both slightly missing the point. How can a film which is firmly set in history "reflect the fact that times have changed". And you can't say that people of that era were racist. By our standards now, yes but by their's, no. Remember that up until the seventies one shade of brown was officially know as "nigger brown" and nobody tied it up with a group of people.

Sensibilities about the word have essentially been imported from the US where it has always had the most terrible, unsavoury connations. There is no going back on that in UK culture now, nor should there be IMO. But for what it's worth, I cannot imagine any sensible black person being offended by its use in such a film. Probably the most which would need to be done is for a note to appear as part of the title sequence, explaining why the dog's name ended up having a role in the actual raid and that that was possible because in those days nobody would have considered its use as racist.

 

[yello]

How can a film which is firmly set in history "reflect the fact that times have changed". And you can't say that people of that era were racist. By our standards now yes but by their's, no.

Does that not suggest that 'times have changed'?

A film can obviously reflect this. After all, what is a reflection if not an image of something past for consideration now? One reflects on the past all the time.

 

[Andy in Sig]

What I'm getting is that if you are trying to be historically accurate i.e. to depict those people who had different standards to our modern ones, you can't reflect the modern attitudes within the film. Indeed, why should you want to? You could put up an explanatory notice at the start or end which would be fair enough. That would be my favoured solution as it would mean that all concerns had been addressed.

 

[PaulB]

Given Gibson's ackowledged heroism (he would happily go through the heaviest flak two or three times to get a good drop) and who and what they were fighting, I think it's daft to accuse him and the people of the time of racism. It was the way of the times and remained so until the 70s in mainstream culture to a large extent.

 

[yello]

you can't reflect the modern attitudes within the film.

Neither is it necessary to do so; in fact, the film could have a clunky feel if it did. The film's image exists on the silver screen, to be regarded much like a painting. The viewer brings the modern attitudes with them to compare and contrast etc.

 

[yello]

Not that I said Gibson was racist (I have no idea) but I think it is fair to say that the brave can also be racist.

 

[Andy in Sig]

Yep. By all accounts there were a lot of terribly brave Waffen SS men.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

If times have not changed and attitudes not moved on would we still not be bombing German hydro electric plants? It is quite likely that any modern production is going to be influenced far more by modern attitudes to, say, the civilian casualties, than the earlier film was when the original audience probably thought "serves the effing Nazi bar stewards right they deserved to drown". Pretty much the Aged P's attitude regarding the events of WWII even today, but then the then German/Italian state did spend 5 odd years of his life trying to kill him and his loved ones.

 

[Black Sheep]

But for what it's worth, I cannot imagine any sensible black person being offended by its use in such a film. Probably the most which would need to be done is for a note to appear as part of the title sequence, explaining why the dog's name ended up having a role in the actual raid and that that was possible because in those days nobody would have considered its use as racist.

such as the scene from the original with the line "the signal for the first dam is "nigger", the signal for the second is..."

the dog was indeed black, and got run over the night before the raid and got buried at about the same time that Gibson would have been over the dam

 

[Chuffy]

The dogs's name was used as a code word for a sucessful breaching of one of the dams. What the dog's name was doesn't matter. There's no need to pass any kind of judgement on the attitudes prevalent back then but the word is incredibly offensive now. Changing it to reflect that doesn't change anything about the story. To be honest I'm surprised and a little depressed that it has become a Big Deal for some people.

 

[Black Sheep]

If times have not changed and attitudes not moved on would we still not be bombing German hydro electric plants? It is quite likely that any modern production is going to be influenced far more by modern attitudes to, say, the civilian casualties, than the earlier film was when the original audience probably thought "serves the effing Nazi bar stewards right they deserved to drown". Pretty much the Aged P's attitude regarding the events of WWII even today, but then the then German/Italian state did spend 5 odd years of his life trying to kill him and his loved ones.

I think peoples views of it are still that it was a tactical decision to take out a fair chunk of germany's heavy industry, yes people were killed, yes it was a tragedy that towns were destroyed

we have to consider if the world would be greatly different had the raid not happened.
but happen it did, just like how many other people this squadron killed.

the american's claimed they could put a bomb in a pickle barrel but as the D day landings proved, they missed an entire beach.

617 (the dam busters) did two fly pasts on the michelin factory in france to allow the workers to get out, then took three out of four buildings down, leaving the canteen standing. it wasn't mindless bombing.

 

[Black Sheep]

The dogs's name was used as a code word for a sucessful breaching of one of the dams. What the dog's name was doesn't matter. There's no need to pass any kind of judgement on the attitudes prevalent back then but the word is incredibly offensive now. Changing it to reflect that doesn't change anything about the story. To be honest I'm surprised and a little depressed that it has become a Big Deal for some people.

i think its that history gets re-written too often by film producers and people are getting fed up of it, it gets to the point that some American's believe that there were no British soldiers taking part in the D day landings!

 

[Andy in Sig]

The dogs's name was used as a code word for a sucessful breaching of one of the dams. What the dog's name was doesn't matter. There's no need to pass any kind of judgement on the attitudes prevalent back then but the word is incredibly offensive now. Changing it to reflect that doesn't change anything about the story. To be honest I'm surprised and a little depressed that it has become a Big Deal for some people.

This debate could go on for ever. The word is massively offensive nowadays when used in the context of modern society. I remain convinced that most black people would be able to place it in its historical context within such a film and not be offended. Obviously we need a black person to comment at this stage ...

 

[GrumpyGregry]

I think peoples views of it are still that it was a tactical decision to take out a fair chunk of germany's heavy industry, yes people were killed, yes it was a tragedy that towns were destroyed.

do we find much contemporary evidence, excepting Bishop George Bell, to support the assertion that people at the time thought it was a tragedy that civilians were killed.

the american's claimed they could put a bomb in a pickle barrel but as the D day landings proved, they missed an entire beach.

not just the american's. In the early days of bomber command dropping bombs on say Crawley when the target was Horsham would have counted as a hit.

617 (the dam busters) did two fly pasts on the michelin factory in france to allow the workers to get out, then took three out of four buildings down, leaving the canteen standing. it wasn't mindless bombing.

That would be the factory in Vichy France generally treated by the Allies as an Nazi occupied state. Not quite the same treatment given there, quite rightly imo, as within the borders of Germany.

617 Squadron were a group of heroic geniuses and sadly too many of them died in the process of defendng our rights.