The King John Way.

[oxoman]

Well I am the route designer and find it disappointing that when someone tries to do something positive for cycling, some other has to be negative. The fact is that, regardless of some important NCN routes, Lincolnshire has been overlooked in the scheme of UK cycling routes. I am an accredited British Cycling Route Builder, so when Cycling UK didn’t have the budget, or interest, to create this route, I decided to spend a year putting one together myself. I involved local cyclists from each area to refine the route. Places of interest were researched and plotted as points of interest. There was no funding available for building a website so I built it myself. Initially a touring route, NCN’s were an important element. However, road cyclists expressed a desire for a road only route, so this was designed. And then what about those wanting shorter circular routes? With help from local cyclists, I added a number of interesting themed rides. The Marmite ‘tyre lever’ you mention is the Tyre Glider. I was the first to bring the Tyre Glider to international attention, and it was an immediate success. My relationship with its inventor encouraged him to sponsor the web hosting. In return, but not a requirement, I added a page advertising the product. And as for promoting a YouTube channel, it’s doing very nicely without needing promotion.

I've actually been watching various YT clips of you recently. Plenty of info so thankyou for your work. Will be doing it via B&B,s first then hopefully camping. Will be riding from south derbyshire to a suitable point on the route before following it and returning home.

 

[mjr]

Well I am the route designer and find it disappointing that when someone tries to do something positive for cycling, some other has to be negative.

I didn't have to be negative: my opinion was made negative by your grumpy words about the work of other route-makers, and the vagueness of your route information ("local rules may say no cycling" - shouldn't you find stuff like that out before suggesting people cycle there and possibly get in trouble unexpectedly?) which made it look like the route is a means to some other end, not an end in itself.

I also think it's disappointing when someone is so negative about other people's work, so I'm disappointed that you're continuing to be so negative about the results of the time and money the NCN and NB volunteers and workers have put into several useful signed cycling routes in Lincolnshire, despite your unsigned route actually piggy-backing on them. If you don't like any criticism, maybe don't be so harsh on those who worked on real-world-signed routes long before you plotted your online-only one?

I am an accredited British Cycling Route Builder,

What is this? I can't find this qualification on https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/education-course-finder or how I can validate this claim of accreditation.

I did find British Cycling used to do an "Online Route Planning Award" but that's just a 3 hour course last offered 2023 which looks like it covers less than many typical tourists would do (no checking photomaps or anything) and only covered their "affiliated partners software".

The Marmite ‘tyre lever’ you mention is the Tyre Glider. I was the first to bring the Tyre Glider to international attention, and it was an immediate success.

Good for him and hopefully you. I wrote "marmite" because it wasn't a success for customers who broke theirs before the limit on rim thickness was added to the website small print, but my bikes are tourers so at least I knew then not to try it.

My relationship with its inventor encouraged him to sponsor the web hosting. In return, but not a requirement, I added a page advertising the product. And as for promoting a YouTube channel, it’s doing very nicely without needing promotion.

So if neither of those things are the reason, maybe it's just presented badly as I suggested, unless you'd like to reveal the aim.

 

[mjr]

I didn’t route the KJW via Sutton Bridge, the reputed crossing place, as it’s just a noisy main road with nothing to see. It does cross at Fosdyke, which could be the spot. No one has ever found any of the treasure so maybe Sutton Bridge it was a misdirection

I think it's wildly inaccurate to say the swinging metal 1897 Cross Keys Bridge is "just a noisy main road with nothing to see". There's also the RAF memorial by it and the paired old lighthouses along the river. I could understand it more if the reason for ignoring most of South Holland was there's not much left connected with King John since the old King John pub closed, as the Cross Keys Bank of his time (one of the possible routes) has been obliterated and replaced by the more modern straighter Cross Keys Bridge Bank.

Fosdyke Bridge is surely far less interesting, being a plain 1990 concrete bridge and I think a long way from old ferry alignments that King John may have used. I've no idea why it's considered interesting.

 

[Ride with Roy]

This looks like an interesting part of Lincoln - which is called Bomber County because of the number of bomber airfields in it. I did my basic RAF training at Kirton in lindsey but sadly only ever saw the route from it south to Norfolk on leave. Flat as I recall, but quite pretty.
Thanks and kudos to Roy the designer for putting the route together.

Thanks for the thanks, it's much appreciated. One of our supporters, Mike Ainsworth, is ex RAF with a keen interest in cycling and old airfields. He has designed a number of military interest routes that can be found on The KingJohnWay.com.

 

[Ride with Roy]

I didn't have to be negative: my opinion was made negative by your grumpy words about the work of other route-makers, and the vagueness of your route information ("local rules may say no cycling" - shouldn't you find stuff like that out before suggesting people cycle there and possibly get in trouble unexpectedly?) which made it look like the route is a means to some other end, not an end in itself.

I also think it's disappointing when someone is so negative about other people's work, so I'm disappointed that you're continuing to be so negative about the results of the time and money the NCN and NB volunteers and workers have put into several useful signed cycling routes in Lincolnshire, despite your unsigned route actually piggy-backing on them. If you don't like any criticism, maybe don't be so harsh on those who worked on real-world-signed routes long before you plotted your online-only one?


What is this? I can't find this qualification on https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/education-course-finder or how I can validate this claim of accreditation.

I did find British Cycling used to do an "Online Route Planning Award" but that's just a 3 hour course last offered 2023 which looks like it covers less than many typical tourists would do (no checking photomaps or anything) and only covered their "affiliated partners software".


Good for him and hopefully you. I wrote "marmite" because it wasn't a success for customers who broke theirs before the limit on rim thickness was added to the website small print, but my bikes are tourers so at least I knew then not to try it.


So if neither of those things are the reason, maybe it's just presented badly as I suggested, unless you'd like to reveal the aim.

Well you certainly live up to your Plank description. I don't need you to 'Validate' my route builder accreditation - you either accept my word or not. The course I took was for their Ride Leaders, of which I am one. I doubt you are one so that's probably why you couldnt find it. It was online, but was tested with a fairly tricky test and minimum pass mark. Indeed, BC acknowledged my accreditation in their news piece about The KJW. Those principles have been applied to the route. These included: checking unfamiliar sections on Google Earth, followed by a physical check by local cyclists, locations of free parking, accomodation, safe crossings of main roads, cafe stops, camp sites etc. Finally, I have ridden the entire route. Please tell me what I've missed. You were clearly so desperate to find something to discredit me that you wasted your time looking for evidence.

My criticism of Cycling UK routes is because they do none of the above. I've been routed through deep sand and bramble lined narrow tracks on the Cantii Way, so I've used that experience to ask 'What do I need out of a route?' and applied that thinking.

I am a great supporter of NCN routes and have promoted their work with videos about the activity of volunteers and the Millennium Mileposts. I have no criticism of their routes or volunteers and have never implied it. Indeed, I worked with their area manager to combine as many NCN sections as possible. The issue is that to make a circular route these need to be joined by non NCN lanes and trails.

The route information couldn't be less vague. There is a short street in Boston that is shown as a cycle route but the local council has recently erected a no cycling sign. Anyone attempting this route should have enough gumption to reroute if they don't want to walk 50 yards. A section of coastal path has been marked with a warning as out of season it can become covered in sand. Surely that is looking out for people's safety and convenience?

There are hundreds of thousands of Tyre Glider users who love them. Anyone who broke one was probably a plank! But you keep on doing it your way. And your 'hopefully good for you' comment probably suggested I get something out of it. Just in case your were wondering, I have not had a penny out of Tyre Glider, apart from test samples, as I am just happy to help the inventor, who got of his arse and did something new for cycling. What have you ever done other that try to put other people's efforts down?

As for presenting it badly, I'd be grateful if you would send me a sample your work for the cycling community so I can see how it should be done. Frankly, I would suggest you are a miserable old sod just looking for something to be negative about. As is often the case with your type, there are probably plenty of others on here and in your orbit who also wish you would be constructive instead of try (and fail) to pull others down. I am always open to constructive criticism but yours negative and just plain wrong. This is a common trait with underachievers. They can't cut the mustard themselves so try to bring down other who can. The route has attracted a lot of positive feedback so you are in a minority of one. And in case you are wondering, I have taken so long to reply as I've been adding a new section to the touring route that was created over 11 years by a determined group of volunteers. As recognition of their work, I made a video for them to help promote it.

I look forward to hearing about your work for the cycling community and your county - but I won't be holding my breath. Other than that, I won't be wasting anymore time on you.

 

[Ride with Roy]

I think it's wildly inaccurate to say the swinging metal 1897 Cross Keys Bridge is "just a noisy main road with nothing to see". There's also the RAF memorial by it and the paired old lighthouses along the river. I could understand it more if the reason for ignoring most of South Holland was there's not much left connected with King John since the old King John pub closed, as the Cross Keys Bank of his time (one of the possible routes) has been obliterated and replaced by the more modern straighter Cross Keys Bridge Bank.

Fosdyke Bridge is surely far less interesting, being a plain 1990 concrete bridge and I think a long way from old ferry alignments that King John may have used. I've no idea why it's considered interesting.

I have news - King John never used that pub! The line had to be drawn somewhere and Fosdyke was the obvious line. Feel free to make an alternative

 

[Ride with Roy]

What's it like for wild camping around there?

Plenty of spots to wild camp. Richard Lake is an avid wild camper and found places with no problem.

 

[Moodyman]

I watched Roy’s videos of this tour and it’s been well thought out and deserves applause for the effort.

I had it down to do over the August bank holiday until a sore knee caused me to postpone until next year.

 

[mjr]

Well you certainly live up to your Plank description.

And you certainly live up to being a colossal "Member", misinterpreting that quote like that.

I don't need you to 'Validate' my route builder accreditation - you either accept my word or not. The course I took was for their Ride Leaders, of which I am one. I doubt you are one so that's probably why you couldnt find it.

No, not a Ride Leader any more, and I never was with BC. For a long time, they would not let the likes of me join. It's only in the last few years that they dropped their anti-doping rules for non-racing memberships. So maybe you can understand why I do not respect BC or trust their accreditation at all. Hiding stuff behind a login so that the public can't check and any old scammer could claim to be a BC Supreme Grand Wizard and we just have to trust them... well, it's pretty much what I'd expect from that priesthood.

[...] Finally, I have ridden the entire route. Please tell me what I've missed. You were clearly so desperate to find something to discredit me that you wasted your time looking for evidence.

And you're clearly so desperate to post a "respect mah authoritah" that you haven't realised I already pointed out stuff you missed. Would you like another one? Some of your map labels for things like Boston Stump say it's in "Witham Town" instead of Boston. The town of Witham is in Essex, about 100 miles away.

The route information couldn't be less vague. There is a short street in Boston that is shown as a cycle route but the local council has recently erected a no cycling sign. Anyone attempting this route should have enough gumption to reroute if they don't want to walk 50 yards.

Ah, yes, that's very much like the Lincolnshire tourism agency's annoying statement that cycling is for "adventurous travellers" so basically fark anyone who isn't physically able to get off and push their cycle that distance. Maybe it should be made clear at the outset with a warning that people should not attempt this route if they can't plot their own suitable routes through unfamiliar places... but then who would ever need a pre-made route.

Also, if you think that rerouting north from Boston Stump is easy, then I think you've not tried it. It's either a fast and nasty dual carriageway A road or about an extra mile and a half.

A section of coastal path has been marked with a warning as out of season it can become covered in sand. Surely that is looking out for people's safety and convenience?

I feel it would be looking out more not to deliberately route them through sand. In fact, I've long said that I think any cycle route designer who feels sand is an acceptable surface should have their carpets replaced with it, but I was intending that to be for council highways offices!

There are hundreds of thousands of Tyre Glider users who love them. [...]

Not in the reviews I've read, but let's leave it aside as it's not about the route.

What have you ever done other that try to put other people's efforts down?

I've helped out on route builds. I've hacked back hedges to keep routes clear. I've put up cycle signs so ordinary people can follow routes easily without faffing about with books or sat navs. I've been "Dr Bike". I've reviewed so many plans over the decades, sometimes getting significant improvements. I've been to so many site meetings with so many designers and architects, often taking a real bike along. I've ridden around towns with cabinet members. I've done fun stuff like Critical Mass and other mass rides, but I've spent far more time than I'd like in town halls instead of out on the bike, but it needs doing to get cycling included as places are built or rebuilt. I've probably done more stuff I forget but I'm just a wobblie not supported by British Cycling who hasn't made a neat sample bigging myself up.

Why does this matter anyway? I could be a complete moron and a mistake in your route would still be a mistake. Shooting the messenger is a lazy distraction tactic.

Frankly, I would suggest you are a miserable old sod just looking for something to be negative about.

Miserable? Nope. Old? Getting that way! Sod? I refuse to answer! And I don't need to look for something to be negative about. It keeps plopping into my inboxes.

As is often the case with your type, there are probably plenty of others on here and in your orbit who also wish you would be constructive instead of try (and fail) to pull others down. I am always open to constructive criticism but yours negative and just plain wrong. This is a common trait with underachievers. They can't cut the mustard themselves so try to bring down other who can. The route has attracted a lot of positive feedback so you are in a minority of one. [...]

You blooming well started the negativity! I make no apologies for replying in kind, but note that I did not engage in the above sort of personal attacks.

There was constructive criticism implied - for example, put up signs and reroute around the no-cycling sections - but I doubt you'll take it. There probably is a minority of one who will offer any non-positive feedback, when you take it this badly.

I won't be wasting anymore time on you.

That's funny when you then immediately replied to another of my posts...

 

[oxoman]

Gents take it easy. As only a rider of many routes like this i can honestly say that imho some parts of routes are at times unsafe or un-rideable, whether that be on or of road and as such we should take responsibility ourselves when riding any routes.