The Shimano CUES thread..

[wafter]

Surprised this relatively big news hasn't been discussed more on here tbh.
The crux is that Shimano have introduced a new, wide-ranging groupset / standard that will replace much of their utility / casual leisure, lower-end MTB and ultimately lower-end road groupsets.

Critically there will be little to no compatability with existing offerings as chain and cassette mounting / hub standards will be different. On the up-side there will be a lot of cross-compatability within the CUES range as cable-pull ratios will once more be standardised (after diverging between road and MTB groupsets some years ago) while cassette sprocket spacing will also be uniform; meaning a degree of cross-compatability between the 9,10 and 11sp offerings within CUES.

This is covered more in depth here by Bikeradar.


On the one hand the standardisation and compatability sounds like a good thing, on the other it's a big leap away from the company current / previous offerings. It also looks like it'll signal the death knell for the three lower-end road groupsets (Claris, Sora, Tiagra), 8-speed cassettes and crucially triple chainsets.

Unfortunately I think the writing's on the wall re. the remaining higher-end road groupsets given the once-anashamedly-middle-ground 105's massive price hike and defection to Di2 and 12sp. I think they're drawing a very clear line in the sand here; whereby in the future we'll have one potentially less-than-ideal, homogonised option in the form of CUES occupying the bottom "half" (probably 75-80%) of the market, with the top end made up of all 12sp and electronic 105, Ultegra and Dura-Ace at the top.. so it means an end to the gradual progression in terms of price and performance currently offered by the six existing road groupsets, plus the end of that trickle-down tech and backward compatability of newer, lower-spec groupsets with older, higher-spec ones.

While I can see why Shimano have done this, it makes me a bit sad that they've apparently forced those who'd traditionally have used 105 to either spend a lot more and go electronic, or send less on something that's potentially inferior to the outgoing 105..

I'm wondering if it's time to stock up on R7000 now..

 

[fossyant]

I wouldn't worry about 'stocking up. I'm successfully running 30 year old Dura Ace, 600/Ultegra and 7-8 Speed LX and XT. Tonnes of parts still available and the likes of Microshift and Sunrace are selling a good range of decent cassettes.

If you wan't something slightly better then you could opt for GRX and use more road based cassettes.

I'm not sold on electronic, it's just something more complicated and expensive when it fails/get's crashed.

Although it's called CUES some of it's 'better' than others - there are three levels !

 

[fossyant]

Be interesting to see what the cassette sprocket width is and the 'spacing'

 

[Alex321]

I don't think the 11 speed CUES road offering when it arrives is likely to be any less good than the last mechanical 105 offering. Not in the U8000 version, anyhow. The U6000 version might be.

And I'm not sure it really means an end to gradual progression either, though we'll have to see which versions become available as road groupsets. But with the current lineup, there are three full ranges in CUES which will hopefully all come to road, and then you will have the three higher (electronic) ranges. So you still have 6 ranges.

Yes, it will start at 9 speed rather then the current 7 speed tourney and 8 speed Sora, but number of speeds at the lower end have been rising regularly for quite a few years.

The biggest issue I see is that anybody who currently has Hyperglide components will need to replace the entire groupset if they want to change, because the CUES components are only compatible with Linkglide.

The other big thing, not mentioned in that article, is that CUES is (at present) disc brake only. If that continues into the road range, then Shimano will have effectively killed off rim brakes, since Di2 105 was already disc brake only.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

gradual progression in terms of price and performance

The last bit is debatable

 

[vickster]

SRAM rocks

 

[Alex321]

plus the end of that trickle-down tech and backward compatability of newer, lower-spec groupsets with older, higher-spec ones.

Missed this in my original reply. I disagree almost completely with it.

Yes, immediate backwards compatibility is taking a hit, due to the new system only being linkglide compatible, but going forward, the fact that it is all inter-operable across the ranges and "speeds" means it should be much more backward compatible than has been the case, and I really don't see why it would have any impact at all on trickle down technology.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

Surprised this relatively big news hasn't been discussed more on here tbh.

It’s like a lot of things. It will be many years maybe decades before we are affected. Bike drive trains other than consumables just keep going and going. Even when they wear out I’m sure replacements will still be available for a very long time.

 

[Alex321]

It’s like a lot of things. It will be many years maybe decades before we are affected. Bike drive trains other than consumables just keep going and going. Even when they wear out I’m sure replacements will still be available for a very long time.

Indeed.

According to the article, Shimano have said they will continue to produce components for the groupsets this replaces for at least 7 years.

 

[Sallar55]

Will Shimano not just gradually stop exporting non Cues gear to 1st world countries. The 3rd world does not need high volumes of the latest gear. For them Cues will be out of reach , like all the mid to high end gear Shimano make . Perhaps they see money to be made by phasing out the old gear just like the other manufacturers.They will need new production lines for the change.

 

[wafter]

Cheers all - some interesting opinions..

I wouldn't worry about 'stocking up. I'm successfully running 30 year old Dura Ace, 600/Ultegra and 7-8 Speed LX and XT. Tonnes of parts still available and the likes of Microshift and Sunrace are selling a good range of decent cassettes.

If you wan't something slightly better then you could opt for GRX and use more road based cassettes.

I'm not sold on electronic, it's just something more complicated and expensive when it fails/get's crashed.

Although it's called CUES some of it's 'better' than others - there are three levels !

That's heartening and yes, I'd agree that the really old stuff seems to be well supported by the aftermarket - if not Shimano themselves any more. However I think there's still the potential for holes in availability to write off entire groupsets on a bike. What happens if one requires a new 11sp shifter for a 105 setup for example? All the previously compatable higher-end stuff will now be 12sp, while the CUES stuff will likely run a different pull ratio.

In principal I agree with the move towards greater component compatability, however the potential cost in terms of keeping existing stuff going concerns me.

I don't think the 11 speed CUES road offering when it arrives is likely to be any less good than the last mechanical 105 offering. Not in the U8000 version, anyhow. The U6000 version might be.

And I'm not sure it really means an end to gradual progression either, though we'll have to see which versions become available as road groupsets. But with the current lineup, there are three full ranges in CUES which will hopefully all come to road, and then you will have the three higher (electronic) ranges. So you still have 6 ranges.

Yes, it will start at 9 speed rather then the current 7 speed tourney and 8 speed Sora, but number of speeds at the lower end have been rising regularly for quite a few years.

The biggest issue I see is that anybody who currently has Hyperglide components will need to replace the entire groupset if they want to change, because the CUES components are only compatible with Linkglide.

The other big thing, not mentioned in that article, is that CUES is (at present) disc brake only. If that continues into the road range, then Shimano will have effectively killed off rim brakes, since Di2 105 was already disc brake only.

I guess quality remains to be seen, but compatability certainly seems out of the window (as acknowledged by your Hyperglide / Linkglide comment). It also seems that part of the motivation for CUES to be introduced is the desire for a more universal standard for electric bikes; meaning compromises will be made to suit this application to the potential cost of others that are more relevant on non-assisted bikes - such as mass for example.

You make an interesting point about disc brakes - personally I'm generally a fan of discs on the whole, certain applications notwithstanding.. it would be a shame to see rim brakes disappear completelty but it certainly looks like this might be on the cards.

Maybe some of my dislike is psychological - I like 105 because to me it feels a bit special and biased towards the upper end of the product range, which something occupying the top end of the bottom has less appeal.

The last bit is debatable

I think it's a legitimate statement to a point; I'd certainly agree that the value of products (in terms of price v. performance) certainly drops off once you've got past 105.

SRAM rocks

Never been a fan tbh!

Missed this in my original reply. I disagree almost completely with it.

Yes, immediate backwards compatibility is taking a hit, due to the new system only being linkglide compatible, but going forward, the fact that it is all inter-operable across the ranges and "speeds" means it should be much more backward compatible than has been the case, and I really don't see why it would have any impact at all on trickle down technology.

Indeed, compatability should remain within CUES, but with nothing outside it. As per my response to fossyant above - what happens when you need a new 11sp 105 shifter in future? With things continuing as they are you'd expect Tiagra to become 11sp and hence to be able to use one of those; whereas under the proposed revisions it looks like Shimano will offer no suitable alternatives.. unless they choose specifically to keep manufacturing parts for the last iteration of outgoing groupsets, however that would mean a significant hike in inventory with the introduction of CUES; presumably something they're trying to avoid with its introduction.

While Shimano seem good at continued provision of more obvious wear parts for older gear (cassettes and chains mainly) it seems that stuff like cranksets and shifters quickly become unavailable once a new iteration has been introduced.

It’s like a lot of things. It will be many years maybe decades before we are affected. Bike drive trains other than consumables just keep going and going. Even when they wear out I’m sure replacements will still be available for a very long time.

Perhaps.. I certainly hope that my stuff will last for a long time and I think that hope's legitimate given my experiences so far running waxed drivetrains.

I'm still quite tempted to stock up on a few bits though - for example it looks like middle rings for the Deore triple on my Fuji are getting scarce and are pretty cheap, so for the sake of potentially having to write off that crankset and replace with a double down the line I might just get another middle ring now (as that's the only one that's likely to wear out in my lifetime!).

Indeed.

According to the article, Shimano have said they will continue to produce components for the groupsets this replaces for at least 7 years.

That's all well and good, but as above - exactly what will this apply to..?

Will Shimano not just gradually stop exporting non Cues gear to 1st world countries. The 3rd world does not need high volumes of the latest gear. For them Cues will be out of reach , like all the mid to high end gear Shimano make . Perhaps they see money to be made by phasing out the old gear just like the other manufacturers.They will need new production lines for the change.

I think the whole point is that CUES will replace everything at the bottom end and is driven by a number of factors including economy. So I suspect if anything less affluent economies will be a big target for CUES..

 

[Ming the Merciless]

I think it's a legitimate statement to a point; I'd certainly agree that the value of products (in terms of price v. performance) certainly drops off once you've got past 105.

That’s where you are going wrong, you want the “mtb” series of derailleurs. Certainly if you ever wanted a suitable low gear you did.

 

[wafter]

That’s where you are going wrong, you want the “mtb” series of derailleurs. Certainly if you ever wanted a suitable low gear you did.

I arguably already have - the Genesis runs a GRX810 long cage RD with an 11-34 cassette and an otherwise 105-exclusive setup. The Fuji runs a similarly long Deore RD; again with an 11-34 cassette. I believe after this era of 9sp components pull ratios diverged between road and MTB; meaning you could no longer mix and match parts.

Obviously within CUES the pull ratios will be normalised again; will be interesting to see whether they stick with the road standard, MTB standard or something totally new..

 

[fossyant]

Don't worry about old stuff still working. Zero problems with the 90's XT kit, and it gets a battering unlike the road bikes.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

I arguably already have - the Genesis runs a GRX810 long cage RD with an 11-34 cassette and an otherwise 105-exclusive setup. The Fuji runs a similarly long Deore RD; again with an 11-34 cassette. I believe after this era of 9sp components pull ratios diverged between road and MTB; meaning you could no longer mix and match parts.

Obviously within CUES the pull ratios will be normalised again; will be interesting to see whether they stick with the road standard, MTB standard or something totally new..

Fortunately I use superior friction shifting. No compatibility issues.