Tiagra 4700 Front Shifter

[PpPete]

Worth putting in new cables?

I had an "interesting" one today:
Bought a set of 11 speed Ultegra mechanical shifters and the associated flat mount hydraulic calipers in a Black Friday sale and only just got arond to fitting them today (replacing cable operated discs). I guess the shop had had them in stock for a while as I dont think Shimano have made mechanical Ultegra for a while so, with a fortuitous discount code, they were way less than half RRP.

Anyway, the supplied gear cables were in and out of the outers and the frame like the proverbial fiddler's elbow while I adjusted cable outer and hose lengths, and after the first couple of times I noticed the inners had a slightly "furry" texture which I took to be a decaying remnant of some kind of surface coating (teflon?) . The movement of inner in the outer did not seem much compromised so I carried on regardless thinking I'd at least use these cables to get everything set up and replace with new inners as & when it became necessary.

Rear mech worked fine and the (105) front mech seemed to have the full range of motion when not connected to the levers (and both had been which working fine previously). The motions and trim positions on the new levers seemed correct, but as soon as I connected everything up it stubbornly refused to shift out of the little ring at the front. Tried everything to get more tension.

Even added an inline adjuster to get more cable tension than what the little adjuster on the front mech coul achieve. The more I tensioned the cable (with the mech on the little ring) the less movement towards the big ring I seemed to get on the lever.
Getting seriously frustrated I printed off the relevant page of Installation manual just in case I had forgotten something - no, all as per.
Went to boil kettle for a cuppa, noticed it needed descaling AGAIN, as it was getting quite "furry"

***Ping*** light bulb moment...the cable inners are not as slick as they might be so try a new cable (which fortunately I did already have)

You guessed it..... worked perfectly first time, hardly needed any movement of either adjuster!

 

[Arthur60]

That is interesting .......

The bike is new, so you could assume the cables are OK.

I even bought the shimano tool to make sure the converter pin under the cable clamp was in the correct position.......

 

[PpPete]

Yes, you could assume.... like I did that because the shifters were new and came fitted with gear cables, so said cables were also OK. Just didnt work with NOS this time.

Have tried to add a photo - but difficult to get it to focus

 

[Arthur60]

Wow never seen that before............really odd.

 

[Shearwater Missile]

Wow never seen that before............really odd.

For what it`s worth you may be interested in my re-route of the cable I did on my Tiagra FD-4700 last year, I had put a post about it. My problem was stiffness in operation but the reroute helped that. I found that converter position did not make any difference. This too was on a new/ish bike and cable change and cable guide change did not make any difference.
Regards

 

[Arthur60]

Thanks.........interesting.

I again went back through the complete Shimano set up guide today. I really think it's about the amount of cable tension......getting enough to activate the trim adjustment, but not overly tight.

Interesting I noted on the shimano guide that the lower trim position was as per the image.......

 

[Erasmus]

The Shimano low trim position is a so and so to set up, and not helped by that diagram, which seems to imply it's achieved by clicking the small inner gear lever past the low position. In normal terms, that could only move the FD further toward the smaller chainring, which would not achieve low trim.

In my own set up, I have to initially click the small lever past low. This does not move the FD, but does something inside the lever (a cam adjustment or similar). Then I can use the big lever (brake) as if I'm shifting up, but the FD clicks into a postion before the big chainring where the chain is still on the small chainring, but the FD is further out, therefore helping chainline in the small/small position.

Hope this makes sense, John.

 

[Shearwater Missile]

FWIW, I tried my low trim position earlier to see how much movement there is. There is quite a bit actually, more than the high trim. The lever will make more clicks if I go past low but of course will not do anything, just something happening for safety inside the lever so you can`t break it. I hope you sort it, scratching the head and observing what is happening is always a good starting point !

 

[Arthur60]

Thanks all very much........

As said before, the more I 'tinker' with it, the more I think the problem is getting the cable tension balanced. So that you have equal movement on low and top trim positions.

As said my old road bike with sora kit was never a problem........perhaps I'm expecting too much from the Tiagra groupset.

Might be easier to set up if I could get some road miles in and adjust on route.......but ice and then continual rain is not helping!!

 

[Ajax Bay]

I can't seem to achieve any real movement on the derailleur on the small ring, even though the shifters clicks over.

Think the idea of a 'low trim' point further 'in' than L is misnomenclature.
Low - L trim - H trim- High

• You must have sensible (as in the cable 'feels' tight) tension at the Low point (per order above).
• That makes sure that the first click gets you movement to L trim (needed if on inner but approaching cross chaining).
• Normally the next firm lever sweep will go straight to High.
• And on the way back down a restrained click will get you to H trim (needed if on large ring but approaching cross chaining).
• A further sweep will get you to Low.

I achieve this by (lever fully relieved):

• unclamped, getting the cage plate clear of the chain in inner/large sprocket with the L limit screw,
• then screwing the screw in a full turn,
• clamping with as much 'hand' tension as possible,
• then unscrewing the screw a full turn: this takes up the inevitable bit of slack,
• then check the cage plate is still clear of the chain,
• then sweep the lever to high and check it'll make it all the way (control as nec with H screw),
• then click back down to make sure the chain will derail onto the inner ring (with the chain still on the largest sprocket - edge case).

There is merit in having a an in-line cable adjuster for fine tuning the FD, to avoid needing to clamp unclamp clamp which ends up fatiguing the cable's strands.

 

[Arthur60]

Ah......that sounds like an idea........I'll give it a go. Thanks

 

[Arthur60]

One final question folks........

Do you have the same amount of front derailleur movement when using either trim positions? So low to low trim, and top to top trim.

Thanks

 

[Ajax Bay]

Overthinking

 

[Arthur60]

Sorry no...but understand your comment.......just trying to make the most out of the function and ensuring I haven't got a duff shifter as the bike is new........