UK Gov Petition - words matter

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Profpointy

Legendary Member
Frankly I think it's well intentioned but a bit misguided. We talk of industrial accident, which after all regularly lead to prosecution. Whilst "accident" can sometimes refer to a random happenstance it does not specifically mean that. The phrase "accident waiting to happen" is commonly used and clearly implies culpability. To want to redefine "accident" to mean "no-blame" and then object to the use of the term is the wrong battle to fight and makes cyclists and safety people generally sound silly and more likely to be ignored . To use the word "collision" when someone falls of their bike or skids off the road even is bizarre - "cyclist in collision with road", "car in collision with field" - really? We already get "cyclist in collision with car" when the poor cyclist has been knocked off by some moron driver - let's not encourage wording that blames the victim
even more

We'll have people objecting to "road tax" next - again a silly argument
 
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mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
Frankly I think it's well intentioned but a bit misguided. We talk of industrial accident, which after all regularly lead to prosecution. Whilst "accident" can sometimes refer to a random happenstance it does not specifically mean that. The phrase "accident waiting to happen" is commonly used and clearly implies culpability. To want to redefine "accident" to mean "no-blame" and then object to the use of the term is the wrong battle to fight and makes cyclists and safety people generally sound silly and more likely to be ignored .
It's not about that so much as accident is generally understood to mean at least unforeseen or not expected (if not blameless) and depressingly many collisions are readily foreseeable and expected. Some are even predicted by cycling campaigners, such as I can tell you there will be collisions at certain points on local road layouts and skids and falls at others where the design is defective or the implementation flouts basic standards. Yet those collisions will be reported as accidents, even though they were foreseen and expected, so not really accidents.

It is not cyclists and safety people defining accident. They are merely reacting to what may be a changing use of language.

To use the word "collision" when someone falls of their bike or skids off the road even is bizarre [...]
That will be why the guidelines use "crash" for that, then. The petition doesn't mention it but I don't recall any legislation outlawing falling off one's bike anyway.

Not reading what you're objecting to makes people generally sound silly and more likely to be ignored.

Petition signed. It's a small move but there is little reason not to do it.
 

Profpointy

Legendary Member
Can there be a negligent incident that is currently called accident that isn't a collision?

Can there be a negligent incident that is currently called accident that isn't a collision?

this comes to mind
635416
 
The narrative for the petition is really poor.

"We believe ‘accident’ represents a wrongful acceptance that crashes are inevitable and fails to acknowledge that a crime may have taken place. Many of those left bereaved or injured after a crash find the term offensive, especially where culpability is proven and the law has been broken. There have been wide calls for more constructive language to be used instead. ‘Accident’ underpins a misunderstanding by society as to the trauma and devastation caused by crashes, it is the language of denial."

Very much a woke style approach. Emotive rather than objective. Too much self serving assumptions in a single paragraph that it becomes silly
  • "a misunderstanding by society"
  • "fails to acknowledge that a crime may have taken place"
  • "language of denial"
  • "wrongful acceptance that crashes are inevitable"
  • "fails to acknowledge that a crime may have taken place"
  • "find the term offensive,"
  • "wide calls for more constructive language"

The term "Incidents" acknowledges an event has taken place without being judgemental prior to an investigation. No emotions, no assumptions, factual etc. Followed by moving to proper incident report and management to protect lives. .
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
The term "Incidents" acknowledges an event has taken place without being judgemental prior to an investigation. No emotions, no assumptions, factual etc. Followed by moving to proper incident report and management to protect lives. .
Feel free to start a petition for adoption of "incidents". It would also be better than "accidents".
 

icowden

Veteran
Location
Surrey
It's not about that so much as accident is generally understood to mean at least unforeseen or not expected (if not blameless) and depressingly many collisions are readily foreseeable and expected. Some are even predicted by cycling campaigners, such as I can tell you there will be collisions at certain points on local road layouts and skids and falls at others where the design is defective or the implementation flouts basic standards. Yet those collisions will be reported as accidents, even though they were foreseen and expected, so not really accidents.
Unless you have some sort of supernatural powers, I don't see how you can forsee an accident.
However *likely* a situation is that an accident *might* happen, it doesn't follow that it will happen. So it is still an accident. The person(s) having it are not having it deliberately, nor have they been set up to inescapably meet with a collision*.

*unless you have a part time job as a spy or hit man, and are trying to eliminate the person

We can decrease the likelihood of accidents and predict that accidents are likely to happen because of certain factors.
We cannot forsee them or expect them though.
 
Here's the same crash with slightly tweaked circumstances to show what an accident is:

- If you jump a red light [with car, bike or HGV!] when you can see another road user approaching on collision course, you are about to have a crash caused by your stupidity..

- If you do the same thing but couldn't see they were coming - that's an avoidable accident (partly caused by negligence).



Some would say the latter situation was "inevitable"; but in reality, if you jump a red light you will be safe more than half the time.

Clearly I haven't described a simple black/white situation here, and I could spend all day trying without totally nailing: but 99% of road users know the difference. Arguing different definitions just makes you sound weirdly obsessive (or plain wrong!)
 

icowden

Veteran
Location
Surrey
- If you jump a red light [with car, bike or HGV!] when you can see another road user approaching on collision course, you are about to have a crash caused by your stupidity..
But they on the other hand are about to hit you accidentally. So although you may have caused the accident it's still an accident. The only way that it is not an accident is if they are intending to hit you or you they.
 
But they on the other hand are about to hit you accidentally. So although you may have caused the accident it's still an accident. The only way that it is not an accident is if they are intending to hit you or you they.
Oh jeez, OK, point to you! I hadn't even tried to consider the other party's perspective, mea culpa! :P

I'll leave it to you to invent a better scenario that easily distinguishes between accident/not-an-accident!!!

(meanwhile, I do agree that the intention is very important - and again, 99% of adults understand this. )
 
To want to redefine "accident" to mean "no-blame" and then object to the use of the term is the wrong battle to fight and makes cyclists and safety people generally sound silly and more likely to be ignored.

Yes exactly. I applaud the intention, but I detest redefining words to bend them to your campaign. It smacks of double-speak and the like. And people lose interest quite quickly if they sense bu11sh1t.
We'll have people objecting to "road tax" next - again a silly argument
That's another pointless "argument" - NOONE CARES that drivers don't pay "ROAD TAX" anymore! if that is your first point of argument, you ain't gonna win anyone over. I genuinely cringe when I see internet cyclists "schooling" drivers who talk about Road Tax. Yeah, go dude, you showed him! 🤦‍♀️

You can probably persuade more people by pointing out the low/zero VED rates available to certain super-clean (or v old?) cars.
 

Profpointy

Legendary Member
Feel free to start a petition for adoption of "incidents". It would also be better than "accidents".

If my car conks out, or I have a flat tyre, or get a vees up from mr angry, or even stuck in a jam for an hour are "incidents", so no, that is a completely different meaning. The emergency services might say "incidents" because they are indeed encompassing some of the above.

To redifine a word then argue that your new definition is objectionable is a a bit dissappearing up your own arse isn't it?

That said, I concede that I find "cyclist in collision with car" objectionable when they've been knocked over albeit fair enough if cyclist has ridden into a parked car say
 
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