Unemployed law students

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ASC1951

Guru
Location
Yorkshire
Lots of blame being put on the education system and politicians, but you overlook the much larger influence of industry, which is almost universally private sector. If employers were serious about getting decent technical staff, they would offer more money - educators and pols can hardly block that....
Yes, fair point. I suppose employers would say you can't make your existing staff better by paying them more; and in many small technical businesses they cannot compete with the public sector on wage levels because those businesses aren't profitable enough to do so.
 

marinyork

Resting in suspended Animation
Location
Logopolis
Possibly, although with Eastern European economic migrants I think it is more likely to be that the same job is better paid here than in their home country. Poland must have plenty of its own farms, for instance.

Polish graduates don't necessarily want to work on farms or various other jobs (if they can get them) in Poland. If you're suggesting that these folk are simple, uneducated, hard-grafting salt of the earth types then I think you need to actually chat to more eastern europeans and people from the subcontinent. It just seems a bit weird that in the UK we have this strange idea that it is only here that expanded and ruined its higher education system, yet we get loads of graduates in from other countries and seem unable to see that those two things are very connected. Immigrants are a classic example of a group of people that include those who are overqualified and in some cases over-skilled compared to the native population.
 

Milzy

Guru
Imagine doing a long apprenticeship & passing exams then someone English/Polish what ever rolls up with no qualifications & ends up on the same salary as you or demands to be. This is what's happening in our factories.
 

Spinney

Bimbleur extraordinaire
Location
Back up north
A simple request for data to back up the statement would have been sufficient.

Moderator advisory:
Please keep to the main topic under discussion and don't disrupt or derail it with off-topic comments, personal remarks or unnecessarily argumentative replies. Anyone doing so risks losing access to the thread.
 

Arch

Married to Night Train
Location
Salford, UK
I should say, given some of my earlier remarks, that I've nothing against University education, in the right subjects (I spent 10 years in academia myself, and loved most of it). Some professions really do need a long education in facts and how-to-think - law, medicine etc. Some less practical subjects are nonetheless helpful to society, and also require long study - history, art, (and perhaps my own subject archeaology, although that also has a strongly practical arm and some people can have a very good natural aptitude for the practical side).

Other subjects are better taught by more practical tuition - learning 'on the job' as an apprentice. Yet other subjects fall inbetween, it's complicated.

I'd prefer there to be fewer university places, and for them to be state funded, so that the only bar to jump is actually being intelligent enough to benefit.

In fact, to trot out something I've trotted out many times before, I'd like to see a sort of National Service Gap Year - not military, but a year in which young people receive some basic income in return for doing a basic job in a field of their choosing. I think it could help a lot of people work out if they really doo want to do that job, understand what it's like at the bottom of a profession, maybe find that they really much prefer to do something they never realised they would like. Then, only after that, they can decide to apply to university, or take up an apprenticeship, or vocational training at a good old polytechnic....
 

Milzy

Guru
What bollocks!

Are you auditioning to be Tommy Robinson's replacement?
I'm afraid I've seen it many times. Sometimes a company might alter it's product & unskilled/semi skilled workers, packers etc end up doing something like welding/fabrication work so they have been recruited from within. Then they may set on some time served guys & if they're paid more than the original guys the unqualified will cry & have animosity towards the real tradesmen. Many will say if I'm doing the same job as him I want the same money as him. Then people go to night school get their certs but the company just keep paying them as per their contract. It's just a small point I'm making, I don't care to discuss extreme right wing groups. I'm talking as somebody involved in industry.
 

nickyboy

Norven Mankey
That's long been the case. The Finnisten Report in 1980 which aimed to raise the status of engineering had unintended consequences when it made the recommendation that Chartered Engineers had to have a degree and its subsequent implemention by the engineering institutions meant that a large tranche of engineers who were far more competent than a lot of their degree wielding peers found themselves excluded from chartered status.
.
Unfortunately the Chartered Engineers have been extraordinarily poor at using their Charter to raise the profile of engineering and increase the attractiveness of an engineering career to engineering graduates.
Other professions have been far more successful. I am a Chartered Management Acccountant. That was know as the "Cost and Works Accountants". But the organisation used its charter to raise academic standards, promoted the qualifications heavily. The upshot is that this is now the number 1 accountancy qualification if you want to work in industry (as opposed to public practice)
Sadly, the poor performance of the Chartered Engineers means that Engineering graduates often end up in accountancy. The audit profession has long been know as one that turns excellent engineers into mediocre accountants.
So the problem with the perception of Engineering is down to the poor performance of the Chartered Engineers in my view
 

Linford

Guest
I'm afraid I've seen it many times. Sometimes a company might alter it's product & unskilled/semi skilled workers, packers etc end up doing something like welding/fabrication work so they have been recruited from within. Then they may set on some time served guys & if they're paid more than the original guys the unqualified will cry & have animosity towards the real tradesmen. Many will say if I'm doing the same job as him I want the same money as him. Then people go to night school get their certs but the company just keep paying them as per their contract. It's just a small point I'm making, I don't care to discuss extreme right wing groups. I'm talking as somebody involved in industry.
Ask a bean counter to see why people want to work in manufacturing in the UK, and they would say they can't and look to close the place down.
They know the cost of everything be struggle to see it's value.
 

biggs682

Touch it up and ride it
Location
Northamptonshire
i think they should be made to work foc doing legal aid funded cases
 

Crankarm

Guru
Location
Nr Cambridge
Later on, yes, although still before she was an MP. Before that she was a research chemist.

Research chemist apparently working under the supervision of Dorothy Hodgkin in her final year. The witch Thatcher was rejected by ICI for being headstrong, obstinate and dangerously head strong. They got that dead right.

Dennis paid for her to study law and I guess subbed her through her pupillage years as a junior barrister. It's all on Witchipaedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Thatcher
 

Crankarm

Guru
Location
Nr Cambridge
Imagine doing a long apprenticeship & passing exams then someone English/Polish what ever rolls up with no qualifications & ends up on the same salary as you or demands to be. This is what's happening in our factories.

Call centres Milzy keep up. Where as Germany will train and invest in new entrants, UK companies NO. Eg in Germany they have whole departments just to maintain and clean rail stations for instance, elaborate machines to clean the tracks and highly qualified engineers to keep the machinery working properly. This is why the German car industry has dominated the world. In Britain everything and I mean everything is done at the cheapest cost so you are going to have lots of immigrants doing lower paid work as UK graduates people who haves studied for many years won't or can't afford to do it. They end up disillusioned working in CALL CENTRES that haven't been outsourced. The UK is totally f*cked up. The German economy is the one we should be aspiring to. Workers are paid a liveable wage so they can then spend cash on a reasonable quality of life which keeps their industries going. Their banks are still very much at a local provincial model, the UK 40 years ago. And it has worked, not super banks that can bring down an economy or throw it and it's neighbours into a massive recession.
 

ASC1951

Guru
Location
Yorkshire
Research chemist apparently working under the supervision of Dorothy Hodgkin in her final year. The witch Thatcher was rejected by ICI for being headstrong, obstinate and dangerously head strong. They got that dead right.
Unlike your good self - the quote is "headstrong, obstinate and dangerously self-opinionated". :whistle:

Remind me, what happened to ICI?
Dennis paid for her to study law and I guess subbed her through her pupillage years as a junior barrister.
Er - isn't that what marriage is about? In those days pupil barristers had to pay for their pupillage and it could be two or three years before they earned more than it was costing them. My uncle was only able to qualify as a barrister because his wife's wages as a young teacher subbed him.
 

marinyork

Resting in suspended Animation
Location
Logopolis
Unlike your good self - the quote is "headstrong, obstinate and dangerously self-opinionated". :whistle:

Can't you argue about something relevant, such as whether you think futurists and some economists are wrong/right and that legal services will become more automated, out sourced and low paid?

Or the tv series Sliders where in one episode around 80% of the population went to Law school but it just led to a very legalistic world and there were still people with law degrees running burger vans.
 

ASC1951

Guru
Location
Yorkshire
Can't you argue about something relevant, such as whether you think futurists and some economists are wrong/right and that legal services will become more automated, out sourced and low paid?
I was just following Crankie round a Margaret Thatcher detour. We're not sitting in a lecture, ffs.

Commodity legal services have already become more automated, out sourced and low paid - conveyancing, for instance, costs far less than it did sixty years ago. As a consequence non-commodity legal services are becoming more expensive and the firms who provide them more specialised. Some areas of law which are no longer funded by legal aid - small commercial disputes, for instance, or many family problems - will no longer be accessible to the ordinary citizen. OK?[/quote]
 
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