Unemployed law students

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asterix

Comrade Member
Location
Limoges or York
'Tosh' is not a word that demands the slightest respect from me! Why not man up and say 'bollocks'?

Among the traditional degree subjects, law and medicine were the exception.

Tosh. The corporate world is crying out for people with imagination and original brains - to the extent that it's currently quite common for companies to run innovation schemes to get new ideas out of people's heads and into implementation.

Yes, within their corporate world. You have illustrated the problem precisely. It's what the corporate world wants and innovators beyond that are not required, thank you. The corporate world calls the shots and your viewpoint demonstrates that.

Anyway, this is morphing into the mental treadmill of P&L, so that's all from me.
 

Linford

Guest
Ah - the "my best friend is black" defence...:rolleyes:

The fact your wife is from the Philippines is irrelevant - you could still be a xenophobe.

Do give this one a rest....it is offensive and insulting to the intelligence of everyone here.
 

Linford

Guest
Nope, armed with their degrees they think working in an Engineering company and getting their hands dirty is benieth them.

Found this a few times in our place...better to take people off the shop floor and train up than bring in people with big qualifications who use the job for convent stepping stone than as a career objective.
 
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ASC1951

Guru
Location
Yorkshire
Relevant knowledge? Experience? Evidence? You do realise you're in the cafe?
Yes indeedy. But give it a few pages for the auto-responder flywheels to spin up and Shaun can shift the thread to C&D. [Ah, Linf and Reg have theirs almost at full speed, so it won't be long.]

Have another cup of tea glass of claret.
Tea please, especially at this time of day. Bear in mind that I was a humble High Street solicitor, practising in an area where a glass of claret would get "Oi! Thi pop's flat, tha knors".
 
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Linford

Guest
Yes indeedy. But give it a few pages for the auto-responder flywheels to spin up and Shaun can shift the thread to C&D. [Ah, Linf and Reg have theirs almost at full speed, so it won't be long.]

Tea please, especially at this time of day. Bear in mind that I was a humble High Street solicitor, practising in an area where a glass of claret would get "Oi! Thi pop's flat, tha knors".

I've iterated on this issue many times in CA&D . There seem plenty of others who share it here, so I don't really need to plumb the depths to find common ground. It is a mess...
 

marinyork

Resting in suspended Animation
Location
Logopolis
I'm just grateful that we have the East Europeans to fill the massive void left by the stupid politically led social experement 'higher education for all'.

If there were no 'higher education for all' in many countries around the world, you probably wouldn't have the stream of highly educated eastern european workers 'who work for nothing'. The question is why doesn't it 'work' in this country?
 

ASC1951

Guru
Location
Yorkshire
If there were no 'higher education for all' in many countries around the world, you probably wouldn't have the stream of highly educated eastern European workers 'who work for nothing'. The question is why doesn't it 'work' in this country?
Partly because we educate and train too many of our young people for disciplines that have no jobs; and middle class politicians and public sector administrators grossly undervalue technical skills.
 

marinyork

Resting in suspended Animation
Location
Logopolis
Partly because we educate and train too many of our young people for disciplines that have no jobs; and middle class politicians and public sector administrators grossly undervalue technical skills.

Surely huge brain drains from other countries, in this case eastern europe, might suggest the problem of disciplines with 'no jobs' may even be worse elsewhere?
 

Archie_tect

De Skieven Architek... aka Penfold + Horace
Location
Northumberland
Things are certainly bad in Spain from Miss A_T's experience. A significant cross section of their population is desperate to gain English skills to make them more employable.

Law is similar to architecture, architecture schools are churning out people every year without practical employable skills.

Couple this with a steady influx of EU students with RIBA [Part 2] qualifications who, unlike UK Part 2 students, don't have to take RIBA [Part 3] exams to register as an architect with the ARB, the UK registration body for architects [protection of title].
 

ASC1951

Guru
Location
Yorkshire
Surely huge brain drains from other countries, in this case eastern europe, might suggest the problem of disciplines with 'no jobs' may even be worse elsewhere?
Possibly, although with Eastern European economic migrants I think it is more likely to be that the same job is better paid here than in their home country. Poland must have plenty of its own farms, for instance.
 

vernon

Harder than Ronnie Pickering
Location
Meanwood, Leeds
Partly because we educate and train too many of our young people for disciplines that have no jobs; and middle class politicians and public sector administrators grossly undervalue technical skills.

That's long been the case. The Finnisten Report in 1980 which aimed to raise the status of engineering had unintended consequences when it made the recommendation that Chartered Engineers had to have a degree and its subsequent implemention by the engineering institutions meant that a large tranche of engineers who were far more competent than a lot of their degree wielding peers found themselves excluded from chartered status.

Middle class politicians and public sector administrators tend to have degrees in the social sciences and humanities and have little understanding and/or empathy for science/mathematical/technical skills. Lord Sainsbury was a notable exception, he created the Gatsby Foundation and one of its six areas of focus was promoting Science and Technology in schools. It had some impact in schools that employed enthusiastic heads of department but the impact might well have been greater had headteachers embraced the initiatives.
Sheffield Hallam University made a major contribution to Science Education with its Pupil Researcher initiative but once again it was enthusiastic science teachers who were the driving force. A retrograde step was taken with the introduction of the last version of the science curriculum which allowed youngsters to obtain a science qualification without any real grasp of any science.

The new decentralised model of teacher training will do little to improve the status of science and maths trainee teachers will have little opportunity to meet each other and exchange ideas. Technology is still regarded as a subject more suited to the less able and unruly in many schools. The only driving force to increase the numbers of students in maths and science is the one that has no currency in the real world and is used to rank order schools - The English Baccalaureate. It is however at the expense of quality.

What would really get things going is a national initiative with legislation and a single administrative body behind it and a fair degree of clout to force all schools to embrace STEM, Science Technology and Mathematics education and support them with suitably funded resources. The current pot pourri of science institutions, charitable trusts, professional bodies, university schools of Science Education need to co-ordinate their efforts to avoid duplication of initiatives and make sure that every school has a senior member of staff with a STEM degree charged with ensuring that his/her school it taking advantage of the opportunities that exist to enhance the scientific and technological leteracies and capabilities of every child.
 

marinyork

Resting in suspended Animation
Location
Logopolis
Things are certainly bad in Spain from Miss A_T's experience. A significant cross section of their population is desperate to gain English skills to make them more employable.

Spain came out similarly in many respects in the recent OECD report. It stood out like England as having very polarised job opportunities in terms of qualifications. Italy a country that until not that long ago had a tiny tertiary education sector compared to many countries also came out badly. Interestingly enough Italy has the reverse problem - under-qualified people. When I've wandered around Italy I get the impression it's like going back in a time machine in this country 25 years in terms of higher education.
 

snailracer

Über Member
I've rehearsed this elsewhere, but working in an Engineering company we can not find young people to join the company at a technical level. We NEED 18 year olds to come and learn with us to be the strong cell leaders, machinists and technicians for the future. Instead, the pool of smart but not academic boys and girls we have drawn on for the last 250 years are not available, they are at Uni, struggling and unhappy doing courses that will leave them unemployable and in debt. Meanwhile we are left with those who are incapable of getting themselves out of bed in the morning
I'm just grateful that we have the East Europeans to fill the massive void left by the stupid politically led social experement 'higher education for all'.

Partly because we educate and train too many of our young people for disciplines that have no jobs; and middle class politicians and public sector administrators grossly undervalue technical skills.

Lots of blame being put on the education system and politicians, but you overlook the much larger influence of industry, which is almost universally private sector. If employers were serious about getting decent technical staff, they would offer more money - educators and pols can hardly block that.

The presence of Eastern Europeans and other foreigners, who, for various reasons, are prepared to work for less than the "locals", simply keeps wages in the sector depressed. So, keep wages down and wonder why nobody wants to be a technician or engineer? Hardly a mystery, is it?

If employers won't or can't pay competitive salaries, then people will choose different careers that are better paid, even allowing for a few years of unemployment while the markets for those other careers recover. And the engineering sector in the UK has hardly been flourishing since the 1960s, so why choose a career in a declined, and still declining industry?
 
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