Vehicle Automation: Moved from Charlie Alliston Thread

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Dan B

Disengaged member
Mod Note

This thread has been split off from the Charlie Alliston thread to allow the discussion to continue without distracting from the original thread purpose.


What will happen is cyclists will have to have liability insurance, bikes will have twice yearly safety checks and will be linked by tracker/licence plate to a government scheme...all bringing revenue to the coffers and a minimal percentage of said revenue will go back into making cycling safer/providing more cycle lanes.

You heard it here first kids.
More likely: lobbying by self driving car companies will lead to a Highway Code revision that says "you should wear a helmet and use cycle facilities where that have been provided" and new charging advice for the CPS will be available that says something tantamount to "the cyclist was on the carriageway, he was asking for it". No change required to any legislation
 
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srw

It's a bit more complicated than that...
More likely: lobbying by self driving car companies will lead to a Highway Code revision that says "you should wear a helmet and use cycle facilities where that have been provided" and new charging advice for the CPS will be available that says something tantamount to "the cyclist was on the carriageway, he was asking for it". No change required to any legislation
Also not a snowball's chance of hell in that happening.

In real life I'm a bit of a pessimist, but I come on here and read the hand-wringing and frankly unreal defeatism expressed on a thread like this and I begin to wonder whether I'm actually some kind of mad Pollyanna.
 

theclaud

Openly Marxist
Location
Swansea
I begin to wonder whether I'm actually some kind of mad Pollyanna.
There might be something in that. :whistle:

The media and motoring lobby has us arguing amongst ourselves over whether 'peds' or cyclists are the greatest menace to civilization. Meanwhile, they have their sights set on getting all of us out of the way.
 

srw

It's a bit more complicated than that...
Meanwhile, they have their sights set on getting all of us out of the way.
If anyone could produce half a shred of evidence of that I might have some sympathy. In the meantime, in the real world, we have self-driving car companies working out how best to work around pedestrians and cyclists, councils all over the country working out how best to make life easier for cyclists and pedestrians and make life more difficult for drivers - by increasing parking restrictions, reducing speed limits, introducing pedestrianised areas - and a government which shortly before it shot itself in the foot published a strategy aiming to make walking and cycling "the natural choice".

Making life easier for people who don't happen to be in a car is easy, cheap, saves money and reduces pollution. All of which even the current shower of ludicrous incompetents quite like doing. And anything that's not easy won't happen. Unless the sainted Jeremy suddenly decides he's against cycling and will whip his party to support the government? Even I don't think he's that silly.
 

srw

It's a bit more complicated than that...
With the memorable exception of Renault
You mean the off-the-cuff and terribly worded comments by their former CEO? Not normally a good indication of official policy.
 

glasgowcyclist

Charming but somewhat feckless
Location
Scotland
If anyone could produce half a shred of evidence of that I might have some sympathy. In the meantime, in the real world, we have self-driving car companies working out how best to work around pedestrians and cyclists, councils all over the country working out how best to make life easier for cyclists and pedestrians and make life more difficult for drivers - by increasing parking restrictions, reducing speed limits, introducing pedestrianised areas - and a government which shortly before it shot itself in the foot published a strategy aiming to make walking and cycling "the natural choice".

Making life easier for people who don't happen to be in a car is easy, cheap, saves money and reduces pollution. All of which even the current shower of ludicrous incompetents quite like doing. And anything that's not easy won't happen. Unless the sainted Jeremy suddenly decides he's against cycling and will whip his party to support the government? Even I don't think he's that silly.


Of course they want us out of the way, that's how it's been for nearly a century.

The dominance of our cityscapes was established early on in the life of the motorcar. In the early 1920s, manufacturers and motoring organisations had editorials published in newspapers calling for pedestrians who crossed roads in front of cars to be called jays, a term for a country bumpkin or simpleton.

They lobbied both local government and police and succeeded with the enactment of legislation in Los Angeles in 1925, criminalising pedestrians who impeded motor traffic. This invented offence was known as jaywalking, a name which is still bandied about today, even in jurisdictions (such as the UK) where no such offence exists although its pejorative intent is still clear. This spread across the country and quickly created the environment where the car was king and those on foot were sidelined.

Since then we have continued to develop and build our cities around car use, creating swathes of no-go areas for people walking. We have large radius corners and junctions so that the motorist loses as little speed as possible negotiating them. At the same time, this creates enormous divides at natural crossing points, meaning the vulnerable pedestrian is in the roadway for far longer than necessary.

Where controlled crossing are provided, they are often well away from established desire lines, corralled by lengthy fencing to force walkers into longer journeys, longer waits. The crossing time allowed is impossibly short for a great many people, favouring the throughput of motor traffic over the pedestrian.

All this has been achieved by those who had, and still have, a financial interest in dominating the roads and streets. It would be naïve to think that what went on nearly 100 years ago isn't going on today and on a far grander scale.
 

classic33

Leg End Member
Of course they want us out of the way, that's how it's been for nearly a century.

The dominance of our cityscapes was established early on in the life of the motorcar. In the early 1920s, manufacturers and motoring organisations had editorials published in newspapers calling for pedestrians who crossed roads in front of cars to be called jays, a term for a country bumpkin or simpleton.

They lobbied both local government and police and succeeded with the enactment of legislation in Los Angeles in 1925, criminalising pedestrians who impeded motor traffic. This invented offence was known as jaywalking, a name which is still bandied about today, even in jurisdictions (such as the UK) where no such offence exists although its pejorative intent is still clear. This spread across the country and quickly created the environment where the car was king and those on foot were sidelined.

Since then we have continued to develop and build our cities around car use, creating swathes of no-go areas for people walking. We have large radius corners and junctions so that the motorist loses as little speed as possible negotiating them. At the same time, this creates enormous divides at natural crossing points, meaning the vulnerable pedestrian is in the roadway for far longer than necessary.

Where controlled crossing are provided, they are often well away from established desire lines, corralled by lengthy fencing to force walkers into longer journeys, longer waits. The crossing time allowed is impossibly short for a great many people, favouring the throughput of motor traffic over the pedestrian.

All this has been achieved by those who had, and still have, a financial interest in dominating the roads and streets. It would be naïve to think that what went on nearly 100 years ago isn't going on today and on a far grander scale.
Somtimes crossings are placed so as to act as traffic calming.
 

theclaud

Openly Marxist
Location
Swansea
in the real world, we have self-driving car companies working out how best to work around pedestrians and cyclists
All self-driving car companies are working out is how to persuade everyone that they need self-driving cars. Sure - working round pedestrians and cyclists would be one approach, but the one they are aiming for is pedestrians and cyclists working around the needs of the cars - an extension of the existing power relations, in other words, rather than the radical transformation in favour of people over cars which is needed.

As ever, Bez is on top of all this:

"Of course, any attempt to turn roads into pure domains of autonomous vehicles—a process for which I’ll coin the phrase “modal cleansing”—would have only limited success, but the underlying point is this:

To solve the problems of autonomous vehicles one must not only control the vehicle, one must control the system."
 

srw

It's a bit more complicated than that...
As ever, Bez is on top of all this:
Bez? Who is Bez?

If I were a self-driving car company my interest, as you so correctly observe [stops and checks what TC so correctly observes] would be to persaude everyone [well, enough people, but I'll cede a point for rhetoric] that they need self-driving cars. But the only way to do that is to make self-driving cars viable in the real world, in which people - poor people, eccentric Corbynistas, obnoxious middle-class anti-Corbyn lefites - decide they won't do what the self-driving car companies want. Or else real people don't do what the self-driving car companies want but expect the self-driving car companies to bend to their wills. Which is rather more in tune with the last 100 years of history than the alternative.
 

theclaud

Openly Marxist
Location
Swansea
Bez? Who is Bez?

If I were a self-driving car company my interest, as you so correctly observe [stops and checks what TC so correctly observes] would be to persaude everyone [well, enough people, but I'll cede a point for rhetoric] that they need self-driving cars. But the only way to do that is to make self-driving cars viable in the real world, in which people - poor people, eccentric Corbynistas, obnoxious middle-class anti-Corbyn lefites - decide they won't do what the self-driving car companies want. Or else real people don't do what the self-driving car companies want but expect the self-driving car companies to bend to their wills. Which is rather more in tune with the last 100 years of history than the alternative.

He's an astute commentator on cycling-related issues, m'lud. He uses the new-fangled media.

What you are describing is not, as GC points out, how we got to where we are now, so why on earth do you imagine automatic cars will change this instead of doing more of what has worked for the car industry to date?
 
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