Vehicle Emissions

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Jody

Stubborn git
The other thing to bear in mind with diesel is the whole life cost of running it. If it doesn't go wrong then you have a cheap car to run. But with the amount of tech in a modern diesel engine you only need a couple of things to go wrong and you are in for a big spend. DMF's, DPF's, common rail pumps,expensive inectors, electric variable geometry turbos and thats before you start on the myriad of wiring and sensors that control it all.
 
Location
Loch side.
Really hydrogen fuel cell technology should be the future. And monorails. Monorail!

I'll shut up now.:blush:

But how do we create hydrogen without using problematic energy sources?
 
Location
Loch side.
There are problems with getting vast amounts of dense, sticky, heavy oil from below a desert across to ground level, across the desert and across the sea, before it is converted into a useful fuel in a hugely complicated industrial-scale chemistry lab, but we manage :smile:
Oil is transportable and can be stored. Electricity not so much.
 
Location
Loch side.
Sorry - gone off on one. I won't be offended if you can't be arsed with the following.....


Until I chose to go full trophy husband this year, I worked for a company that provided software for the UK energy market, so this used to be my area of operations.

You're right, but only to a point. Most countries are investiging heavily in renewables. China in particular are getting heavily into solar, although they're still committed to coal in the medium term. China, Japan, Germany and I think India all produce more energy from renewables than nuclear, although this will include biomass as well as solar/wind. The reason is economics. The cost of solar in particular has plummeted.

The only two major economies that are at least trying to buck the trend are the U.K. and the States. The UK Dept of Energy and Climate Change has been outsourced to the nuclear lobby for some time. I'm not raging anti-nuclear (I'm a nuclear physicist by training) but this country's energy policy gives nuclear a very easy time, even when the economic arguments are debatable. It's also very lukewarm in its support for wind and tidal, two resources we have in abundance. The States is pure politics, but Trump's plans for 'clean coal' :laugh: will be dashed on the rocks of basic economics.

There are a few technical and market driven reasons why nuclear is favoured in this country. What makes electricity difficult when compared with any other energy commodity (gas, coal, oil etc) is that it's very difficult to store in industrial quantities. The best we do at the moment is a big pumped hydro reservoir in Wales. Our current market for electricity is essentially demand driven, defining an always-on 'baseload' level of generation, suplimentented by more flexible generators for peaks in demand. Once a nuclear reactor or coal fired station is on, it stays on, so these are/were the go-to providers for baseload. The market then uses more turn-on-and-offable sources, such as gas turbines, to meet peaks.

Although this process operates as a market, with some demand being auctioned about an hour before it's required, it's quite a rigid system, which will favour the more predictable energy sources. There is a mechanism where a major power user can sell back its demanded power to the grid if things get tight (and make a shed load in the process) but there's nothing to manage consumer demand.

Most people don't realise but the UK's national grid has connections (interconnectors) to France, the Netherlands, Ireland and I think one is being built across to Norway. This allows us to share excess capacity or meet demand across national boundaries. From memory, were net importers from the European mainland but exporters to Ireland.

Bizzarely, a move to electric cars might help things as car batteries could be charged off-peak, using any spare capacity. A very clever system would allow users to sell their charge back into the grid if they didn't need it during peak demand.

Really hydrogen fuel cell technology should be the future. And monorails. Monorail!

I'll shut up now.:blush:

You mention storage. What do you think of Musk's work on storing huge amounts in batteries? On paper it seems like an excellent way of managing peaks and dips.
 

Jody

Stubborn git
[QUOTE 4749895, member: 259"]Yes, but the same goes for modern petrol cars.[/QUOTE]

Not really and they don't suffer the same as diesels.
 

Jody

Stubborn git
You need to use data for the grid the electricity is supplied from. In our case, CO2 competes with the most efficient diesel cars but without the air quality problems.

What about the production and replacement of battery systems used in cars. Has anyone done a comparison when that is taken into account?
 
U

User482

Guest
What about the production and replacement of battery systems used in cars. Has anyone done a comparison when that is taken into account?
Yes. I can't remember the details, but the broad thrust was that the additional impact from battery production is a) offset by removal of the combustion energy and fuel supply infrastructure and b) trivial when compared to the life-cycle impact of a car overall.
 

Bollo

Failed Tech Bro
Location
Winch
You mention storage. What do you think of Musk's work on storing huge amounts in batteries? On paper it seems like an excellent way of managing peaks and dips.
That's starting to get away from stuff that I could claim expertise in, but at the moment it's more clever packaging and marketing of existing technology, rather than anything fundamental. The power wall is still just a battery and an inverter, albeit reasonably cutting edge. Looking at the latest specs, it will hold about 13.5kWh usable power. A representative uk wholesale price of energy knocks around 50GBP/MWh = 5GBp/kWh, so the power wall holds 5x13.5 = 67.5 pence of electricity at wholesale, so around £1.30 at retail. A powerwall + installation will set you back £7,000+. In those terms its a massive outlay for what, in monetary terms, is very little storage. With the present state of generation, transmission infrastructure and household and business energy efficiency, the money could be spent more effectively.

I'm not knocking it, and something like this that integrates generation, storage and consumption (including transport) should happen at some point in the future. One of the issues with the current smart meter rollout is that the technology is already outdated. Also, can you imagine the Daily Hate Mail kicking-off if it's suggested that you might have to pay more to run your tumble dryer at 6pm on a sunny summer evening.
 
Location
Loch side.
That's starting to get away from stuff that I could claim expertise in, but at the moment it's more clever packaging and marketing of existing technology, rather than anything fundamental. The power wall is still just a battery and an inverter, albeit reasonably cutting edge. Looking at the latest specs, it will hold about 13.5kWh usable power. A representative uk wholesale price of energy knocks around 50GBP/MWh = 5GBp/kWh, so the power wall holds 5x13.5 = 67.5 pence of electricity at wholesale, so around £1.30 at retail. A powerwall + installation will set you back £7,000+. In those terms its a massive outlay for what, in monetary terms, is very little storage. With the present state of generation, transmission infrastructure and household and business energy efficiency, the money could be spent more effectively.

I'm not knocking it, and something like this that integrates generation, storage and consumption (including transport) should happen at some point in the future. One of the issues with the current smart meter rollout is that the technology is already outdated. Also, can you imagine the Daily Hate Mail kicking-off if it's suggested that you might have to pay more to run your tumble dryer at 6pm on a sunny summer evening.

No, it goes beyond the power wall. He's now proposing (and has done it in one city) to sort out the peaks and troughs in demand by installing city-sized battery banks. He's just made a bet with one Australian city that if he can't sort it out, they won't have to pay.
 
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