Vino wants to go back to Astana

[Chuffy]

You're not arguing that I take it?

Which bit amuses you, that anti-doping action has become tougher in recent years (specifically the last year, with ASO refusing to invite 'undesirable' teams) or the idea that doping punishments can't be retrospectively upgraded?

 

[Tetedelacourse]

the "unreasonable to retrospectively apply them" bit, given your position on Longhorn.

 

[Chuffy]

the "unreasonable to retrospectively apply them" bit, given your position on Longhorn.

Ah, I see. Ok, fair cop I suppose. Except that LA was never caught, other than via the retrospective 1999 tests, so conventional anti-doping measures don't really apply. If ASO were to refuse to invite him it would be because they regard him as an 'undesirable'. A shade Jesuitical to be sure, but we are talking cycling politics...

With regard to Maurice's point about Millar's team being kicked out (and we'll ignore the fact that he was riding for Cofidis when he was busted, not S-D or Slipstream) it does seem grossly unfair to turn round and say 'you were caught and punished four years ago but we didn't do you hard enough so here's an extra helping'. I do agree with holding teams liable for the actions of their riders though. Anything that puts pressure on the teams to ensure compliance has to be a good thing.

 

[maurice]

'you were caught and punished four years ago but we didn't do you hard enough so here's an extra helping'

You could apply that to Vino, he was caught and he did his ban.

It seems unfair to go back and say "we didn't do you hard enough so here's an extra helping", just as you say for Millar.

 

[mondobongo]

Cycling has moved on a lot since Millar was caught doping and if he was caught today he would no doubt be pilloried in the way riders currently caught are. When Millar was caught he put his hands up and got the full 2 years and went off to do his time.

Fast Forward a few years and the war on Doping has been significantly upped there is now zero tolerance and the sport is trying to clean up its act.

Vino was caught his Federation then gave him a 12 month ban!!!! UCI obviously objected to this and were going to CAS when Vino announced his retirement. UCI could not pursue case hence now he has done a year and wants back on his bike. Vino is playing games and should not be allowed back in till he has served a 2 year ban which was the maximum at the time and what everyone else was getting if caught.

For the record I don't want to see him back in the peloton but we can't stop it but I do want him to serve a 2 year ban Maurice.

 

[Tetedelacourse]

Please excuse my ignorance; how has cycling moved on a lot? In what respect? I thought so before Ricco but not now.

When Millar was caught he put his hands up because he had no choice. He WAS pilloried.

 

[Chuffy]

Please excuse my ignorance; how has cycling moved on a lot? In what respect? I thought so before Ricco but not now.

Testing seems more pro-active, targeting people on the basis of suspicion and intelligence. Also fans seem less willing to turn a blind eye. Millar had a mixed reception when he came back, but earned many brownie points for being relatively open about what had happened. He earned more by buying into Slipstream. More recent dopers, post-Landis/Rasmussen, won't be welcomed back at all, imho. The main difference is that tolerance for dopers has eroded noticeably since 2006.

EDIT - having said that, Rock Racing and Hamilton seemed to get a good reception at the ToB, so maybe things haven't moved on that much...

 

[mondobongo]

Please excuse my ignorance; how has cycling moved on a lot? In what respect? I thought so before Ricco but not now.

When Millar was caught he put his hands up because he had no choice. He WAS pilloried.

Millar was caught and banned in 2004. In the last 4 years there has been a major push to clean up the sport which has resulted in a number of high profile riders being caught doping. It really is no longer seen as acceptable unlike the days of Voet and Co also testing appears to have got better so in my opinion yes cycling had moved on. Ricco was indeed a major blow as we thought it was only the old guard at it.

Millar could have taken the Landis/Vino/Schumacher I am innocent stance he never. I don't recall him being pilloried a drug cheat yes but I can't recall reading that much about it and some of it was written in a how dissapointing way.

 

[John the Monkey]

EDIT - having said that, Rock Racing and Hamilton seemed to get a good reception at the ToB, so maybe things haven't moved on that much...

I wonder how much of that they'd have got if they'd turned up without the faux "bad boys of cycling" image and fancy shirts, tbh.

One thing no one's mentioned regarding the "new" era is the drug companies working in concert with WADA - the test that identifies CERA was developed with the active co-operation of the drug's manufacturer - that is significant, and potentially puts the anti-doping authorities one step ahead of the cheating buggers who are steadily depriving me of some of my favourite moments from the tour dopers.

 

[Chuffy]

I guess the consensus is that the anti-doping movement has moved on significantly in recent years, but we've had many false dawns before (remember the '68 Tour of Health?) and we can't afford to be complacent or consider the battle against doping to be anywhere near 'won'.

JtM - Yes, the image thing that Rock have going on does make them quite an appealing package, superficially at least. Plus, Hamilton is from the Millar era (if there is such a thing). I do think that the post 2006 dopers will get a much rockier ride when they try to come back.

 

[maurice]

I think ASO has done a good job of changing our perception to think things have moved on, but you can't be convinced it really has when so far 5 out of 21 stages of this years tour was won by a doper.

There may even be more to come.

 

[Tetedelacourse]

I think ASO has done a good job of changing our perception to think things have moved on, but you can't be convinced it really has when so far 5 out of 21 stages of this years tour was won by a doper.

There may even be more to come.

That was what I was getting at, o succinct one.

Add Schleck into the equation, a peppering of Moises Duenas and a slice of Moreau for good measure, and it looks like another tour of PEDs.

 

[rich p]

That was what I was getting at, o succinct one.

Add Schleck into the equation, a peppering of Moises Duenas and a slice of Moreau for good measure, and it looks like another tour of PEDs.

Moreau???? Did I miss something?

 

[Chuffy]

I think ASO has done a good job of changing our perception to think things have moved on, but you can't be convinced it really has when so far 5 out of 21 stages of this years tour was won by a doper.

There may even be more to come.

But this is the nub, I think it was Millar who said that it would get worse before it got better. I assume that he was referring to the number of riders being caught. 5/21 is a lot and there may be more to come, which is a sign that ASO are taking their anti-doping strategy very seriously. I seem to recall that there were certain people on here suggesting that ASO would hush up any positives and that certainly hasn't happened.