We really are treated as the poor cousin aren't we?

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redhanded

Active Member
I bet she was, you see what will happen is that peds will start taking legal action against cyclists in the UK for accidents, obviously this will then lead to compulsory cycle insurance :tongue:

Why shouldn't pedestrians take legal action against cyclists for collisions? They can do it today.
 

Leodis

Veteran
Location
Moortown, Leeds
All this doesnt matter now for another generation since government will announce no set annual budget for cycling, token measures whilst the fat get fatter and drivers get off with a fine for killing people. The Dutch dream will just have to remain that for a while.
 

CopperBrompton

Bicycle: a means of transport between cake-stops
Location
London
And for those who bang on about Dutch infrastructure, I'd simply point out that the % of Dutch roads with facilities is actually much smaller than you might think, concentrated on those urban areas that were rebuilt post-war and virtually non-existent in the old streets of places like Amsterdam.
Not really - I can think of, well, exactly nowhere that didn't have cycle path provision comprising as a minimum of a totally-respected painted cycle lane 2-3 times as wide as British ones.

As for Amsterdam, if the space was too narrow for cycle paths, they either ban cars from them or make it so inconvenient to use a car that few bother.
 

ComedyPilot

Secret Lemonade Drinker
Reg is right on that one, a good amount of the route is on normal roads, albeit quiet ones. Add to that the fact most if not ALL drivers in the Netherlands respect vulnerable road users and drive accordingly (regardlesss of whether there is seperate cycle provision or not), and it doesn't make the on-road sections a big deal.

Get off the ferry in the UK in Kingston Upon Hull and try to ride away from the port with the same joie de vivre / laissez-faire attitude, and you WILL be brought back down to (a shitty horrible) reality with a bump.
 

CopperBrompton

Bicycle: a means of transport between cake-stops
Location
London
As someone who has cycled very extensively in the Netherlands I can think of lots of places without lanes. For example, much of the Rhine route (EuroVelo 15) through Holland is on normal roads - without any cycle lanes.
Are you talking about quiet roads in the middle of nowhere that see four cars a week?
 

Glow worm

Legendary Member
Location
Near Newmarket
Get off the ferry in the UK in Kingston Upon Hull and try to ride away from the port with the same joie de vivre / laissez-faire attitude, and you WILL be brought back down to (a s***ty horrible) reality with a bump.

I can relate to that. After a brilliant, incident free ride to from Hook of Holland to Amsterdam and back last year, I was on return, almost taken out on a blind bend by a Volvo about a mile from Harwich ferry terminal- welcome home I thought!

I wouldn't trust most british drivers to be in charge of a toilet roll, let alone a motorised vehicle.
 

GrumpyGregry

Here for rides.
Reg is right on that one, a good amount of the route is on normal roads, albeit quiet ones. Add to that the fact most if not ALL drivers in the Netherlands respect vulnerable road users and drive accordingly (regardlesss of whether there is seperate cycle provision or not), and it doesn't make the on-road sections a big deal.

Get off the ferry in the UK in Kingston Upon Hull and try to ride away from the port with the same joie de vivre / laissez-faire attitude, and you WILL be brought back down to (a s***ty horrible) reality with a bump.
Inevitable really, you'd be in Hull.
 

CopperBrompton

Bicycle: a means of transport between cake-stops
Location
London
Don't panic, regulatory chap, we all of course recognise that you are the ultimate authority on everything.
 

BentMikey

Rider of Seolferwulf
Location
South London
It's no one thing that makes the Netherlands so good, but a collection of many different things. User is right that presumption of liability is important, as is the safety in numbers effect. So is the infrastructure (which goes far beyond mere segregation), and the cultural approach, and the approach to making journeys by car more difficult to get people onto other modes of transport..

Hembrow is annoyingly right on some issues, I feel, and wrong on some others. He's dead against the idea that safety in numbers and presumption of liability have any useful effect, but I'm with User on this. They are both parts of the solution, a much bigger part than he likes to admit. Additionally the Netherlands is far from perfect, and there are certainly problems. That said, compared to the UK it's so much better that it might as well be perfect from anything you might compare with over here.

I'm also chuckling at Leodis moving onto a new tack and theorising that the UK can't afford cycle infrastructure, having abandoned his previous points now they've been slaughtered in the debate. The reality is we can't afford not to do extensive measures along Dutch lines, and were there the will the UK could easily afford to take on proper cycling design and planning.
 
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