We really are treated as the poor cousin aren't we?

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Twelve Spokes

Time to say goodbye again...
Location
CS 2
Poor road infrastructure or poor driving?
 

CopperBrompton

Bicycle: a means of transport between cake-stops
Location
London
While I'd love to see Dutch-style cycling infrastructure here, the article doesn't say that 50% of journeys in Reading are made by bicycle, and the chances that more people cycle in Reading than The Hague are zero.

"The Hague meanwhile spends millions of Euros each year on its cycling network which has ensured only 20% of road users travel by car, compared to just over 50% in Reading."
 

Leodis

Veteran
Location
Moortown, Leeds
While I'd love to see Dutch-style cycling infrastructure here, the article doesn't say that 50% of journeys in Reading are made by bicycle, and the chances that more people cycle in Reading than The Hague are zero.

"The Hague meanwhile spends millions of Euros each year on its cycling network which has ensured only 20% of road users travel by car, compared to just over 50% in Reading."

TBH I wouldnt, they ride to at a very slow pace and its just to get to A - B, I ride to get fit as well and cycling 5mph would be pretty pointless and on Dutch style networks they are designed for slow riders. Rather than pushing cyclists off roads and by passing the true issue we should be integrating cycle lanes with roads not segregating.
 

ComedyPilot

Secret Lemonade Drinker
You won't find a more pro Dutch-style infrastructure advocate than me but.........Beware of what you wish for, as you may get more than you bargained. It's a double-edged sword and I'll tell you why (once I get out of cliche mode)......

I have ridden extensively in the Netherlands and from 'experience' as a cyclist and a Brit I can assure you that our attempts at cycle infrastructure are at best pathetically mediocre - and at worst a farking contemptuous peace-meal offering that is infested with maggots....and I would hedge my bets that ours leans more towards the fly larvae-ridden offering than the mediocre one...

castlepoint.jpg



So going Dutch is the way forwards?

Well, yes.......and no.

Lets start with the 'yes' camp - Cycling in the Netherlands is something the majority of the population do on a regular basis, therefore most drivers see cyclists as 'normal', not some fringe element in society. Also, due to various well-documented events in the 1970's (oil shortages/economy/road safety (children being killed in road accidents) the PEOPLE** of the Netherlands decided enough was enough and set about changing their communities to be more pro-bike. Fast forward 35-40 years and you can ride almost anywhere in the Netherlands on either clearly signed and maintained cycle paths, or on segregated roads (and here's the good bit) when you are on one of these roads car drivers actually SEE you and pass safely. Also, woe betide any driver who actually hits a cyclist, because they WILL have the full force of the law bearing down on them. So the yes camp looks quite rosy?

It is - but it's also a little bit too...how can I put this - it's a bit too 'Truman Show'.....too perfect, too artificial....

So now for the 'no' camp:

The thing that makes it too perfect is the one thing that I enjoy about UK cycling - the adventure of getting lost down miles of country lanes (single track :whistle:) and finding lovely village pubs, cafes, mill ponds and exploring the land.

8578338148_a3e37542cc_z.jpg


The above picture is about a mile from my house as the crow flies.
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Yes, you can do the same in the Netherlands, but you can never get lost. I found that at almost every juction in the route I took I was greeted as a minimum with a 'toadstool' - a small metal post with 4 faces, each marked up with place names and distances lined up to help errant cyclists orientate themselves.


And as if it weren't perfect enough, they even put signs up to warn you that you will soon be arriving at another sign:
Fietsknooppunt_kempen.jpg


At the other end of the scale there would be clear legible metal signage pointing (correctly) towards my required goal - with the (accurate) kilometre(age) counting down to the nearest 100m


or a generic national standard map of the area showing current position and all the local routes nearby.
fiets+map.JPG


Think of it a bit like a london undergound tube map for cyclists.

Eagle eyed readers will notice the points are numbered, so if you want to cycle in an area, you don't even need a map - you just note the point numbers along your route and ride to them - 1-4-7-13-15-17-20

Team that up with cycle lanes that on average look like this
3687857383_4a19720da6.jpg


this

Amsterdam08.jpg


Or this

texel-cycle-path.jpg


And whilst you have cycling nirvana, you also take a bit of the 'adventure' out of cycling by making it too clinical?

Strangely though, there aren't too many helmet camera crusaders in the Netherlands......I wonder why?
 
TBH I wouldnt, they ride to at a very slow pace and its just to get to A - B, I ride to get fit as well and cycling 5mph would be pretty pointless and on Dutch style networks they are designed for slow riders. Rather than pushing cyclists off roads and by passing the true issue we should be integrating cycle lanes with roads not segregating.
Cyclists have already been pushed off the road by the present system.
I find it very sad that a minority group of sporty cyclists seem determined to discourage measures to encourage the majority to take up a healthy, cheap and environmentally friendly mode of transport.
The economy of the country is dependent on a safe and efficient motor transport network, this cannot be achieved as long as motor vehicles travelling at up to 70 mph in all weather conditions, night and day, are sharing a network with cyclists of all ages and with varying degrees of experience.
A degree of segregation is essential.
 
Unless I've misunderstood the 'British' picture, I think it's a little unfair to compare a picture of a road with a cycle lane, to a road without one, regardless of the country of origin!
 

ComedyPilot

Secret Lemonade Drinker
Snorri has been reading my mind.

The UK cycling population is a low-figure hardcore of hardy cyclists that are accustomed to the sh*t system we have at the moment. The largest uptake group of new cyclists will not be chiseled hunks (or hunkesses) on carbon Bianchis, they'll be 'normal' people riding normal bikes on normal journeys. They just don't do it now because it is NOT safe for them.

I work in a factory with about 40 people - 5 of us cycle regularly to work or socially and for fitness. The other 35 when asked all said they would never ride due to the lack of safe infrastructure......So what does that tell you?
 

ComedyPilot

Secret Lemonade Drinker
Unless I've misunderstood the 'British' picture, I think it's a little unfair to compare a picture of a road with a cycle lane, to a road without one, regardless of the country of origin!
The British picture is of a lane I frequently ride on. The point I was trying to make is that I actually like cycling in the UK as it already has a myriad of such lanes, and exploring them makes cycling fun. Conversely, the Netherlands are so well set up, that whilst they do have lanes like the British one, they are almost all well signed and there's no 'surprise' element one has when exploring UK lanes.

Just my view, and not necessarily right.

Edit - the other British picture is of a typical 'box-ticking, peace-meal, maggot-infested pile of shoot'
 

Nigeyy

Legendary Member
Really interesting post thanks. I experienced the Dutch cycle paths and to be honest, loved them.

OK, it took me all of about 3 nanoseconds to think "Yeah, I'll take the Dutch model". Is that bad? :smile: Seriously, I do take the point of reducing a bit of adventure, but if you want that, why not just ignore the signs? Cycle paths are very interesting -on one hand I see the points of less pollution, less reliance on oil, reducing health costs -but the real problem is foisting it upon a generally very lazy and pro-car majority culture. I think I'd be very safe in saying if there was a referendum in the UK (or USA) there would not be a majority of people voting for more money for a Dutch cycle path-like infrastructure. And shouldn't we respect a majority? Having said that, I also appreciate that the best way forward is often times not accepted by the majority either (for example, it's not exactly a common thing to see a population vote for tax raises and cuts in services voluntarily!). But then we get into the issues of Big Brother government doing/knowing what's best for you......

And why are the Dutch much less helmet-centric? Best guess is that with all the cycle paths and separation from cars, the perception is that it's a fairly safe activity.

You won't find a more pro Dutch-style infrastructure advocate than me but.........Beware of what you wish for, as you may get more than you bargained.
 

Leodis

Veteran
Location
Moortown, Leeds
Cyclists have already been pushed off the road by the present system.
I find it very sad that a minority group of sporty cyclists seem determined to discourage measures to encourage the majority to take up a healthy, cheap and environmentally friendly mode of transport.
The economy of the country is dependent on a safe and efficient motor transport network, this cannot be achieved as long as motor vehicles travelling at up to 70 mph in all weather conditions, night and day, are sharing a network with cyclists of all ages and with varying degrees of experience.
A degree of segregation is essential.


Sorry you feel that way, I cycle because I love it, also I like to keep a pace and if you create a separate network off road you then isolate road cyclists even more for the sake of a few parents been able to cycle with their children a couple of months a year. There is no need to isolate cyclists further when the roads CAN be made safer rather than ignoring the problems we face with creating segregated lanes for slower cyclists.

Strangely though, there aren't too many helmet camera crusaders in the Netherlands......I wonder why?

They don't wear helmets?

Noticed when watching a Dutch cycling video just now and did not see one road bike, love to see roadies travelling at 10 mph
 
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