We really are treated as the poor cousin aren't we?

[snorri]

Is this a whole road only for bikes @snorri ? With hard shoulder too?

Yes
I think the hard shoulder is for these pesky pedestrians.

Here's another pic, give these cyclists half a chance and they'll ride five abreast, what's not to like?
.

 

[CopperBrompton]

TBH I wouldnt, they ride to at a very slow pace and its just to get to A - B, I ride to get fit as well and cycling 5mph would be pretty pointless and on Dutch style networks they are designed for slow riders.

I've cycled a reasonable amount in the Netherlands. In cities, where cycle traffic is very dense, sure your speed is limited - but then that's not terribly different to rush-hour roads in London (unless you are suicidal enough to want to filter past at speeds that don't allow you to get your eyes and brain to a given space before your bicycle reaches it).

Everywhere else, you can cycle at whatever speed you like.

 

[CopperBrompton]

Some Dutch cycle paths. What exactly is it about them that you think limits you to 5mph?

 

[CopperBrompton]

Oh, and some town and city cycle paths:

And a Dutch roundabout (where cyclists have priority over cars exiting, as well as entering):

 

[ComedyPilot]

Yes
I think the hard shoulder is for these pesky pedestrians.

Here's another pic, give these cyclists half a chance and they'll ride five abreast, what's not to like?
.

Post of the year for me......

 

[ComedyPilot]

Oh, and some town and city cycle paths:

And a Dutch roundabout (where cyclists have priority over cars exiting, as well as entering):

Yeah but, but, but.........I'm running out of excuses not to go Dutch......(sic)

Build it and they will come Gunga Din, build it and they WILL come.................

 

[Leodis]

Yeah but, but, but.........I'm running out of excuses not to go Dutch......(sic)

Build it and they will come Gunga Din, build it and they WILL come.................

I am still wondering why you are scared of riding on roads? Its like you think by moving cyclists off roads is the solution to getting people cycling when in fact it just creates more problems for those who actually use the road.

Its like those who claim Cycle craft is killing cycling because Franklin is against segregated cycle facilities, yet I am sure most of you have read this book. Adding pretty pictures of cycling in the EU is all good and well but the reality is that in the UK (maybe with the exception of London who has £900m worth of investment) will never see anything like this, they will get a cheap imitation if anything.

Why can you not see that less bikes on roads equals more aggression, poorer awareness and more deaths to cyclists? By sticking your own heads in the sand and dreaming thinking that any government will spend anything near needed is a joke and you are kidding yourselves. Improved cycle facilities on UK roads and changes in Law are a quicker more real move forward.

 

[ComedyPilot]

I aren't scared of riding on the road Leodis, I already do it - but this debate isn't about me or you - it's about providing safe facilities for future generations to cycle on. Future generations of utility/commuting/leisure cyclists will benefit from such investment.

Leodis, do you ever think to yourself, "How does a country like the NL afford to invest in the infrastrucure year in year our from a population of 16.69m, yet a country like the UK with a population of 62.74m can't?"

You might not, but I do......

Old figures, but in 2010 the NL govt invested 480m Euro in cycle infrastructure - about 30 Euro per person - and they do this year in year out despite already extensive facilities. And our govt announces a one-off £94m investment....and we're supposed to be happy?

And as for infrastructure creating problems for other cyclists, do you have proof of this, or is it wild speculation?

What are you so scared of?

Don't take my inane babbling as gospel, book a weekend Dutch dash and see for yourself how it is - then maybe, just maybe you might see it from a different perspective?

 

[CopperBrompton]

I am still wondering why you are scared of riding on roads?

Nobody on this forum is scared of riding on roads - we all do it every day - but what you're missing is that we're the exception. There are lots of people out there who are scared of riding on roads, and so don't. What the Dutch experience demonstrates is that if you make it visibly safe and pleasant for them, they will.

You seem to imagine the Netherlands is on a different planet, or that all that lovely cycling infrastructure was always there. It isn't, and it wasn't. The Dutch people demanded it. All the same reasons that exist here for not doing it - cost, available space, etc - existed there too. They did it anyway. So did Denmark, Sweden, Norway and - to a lesser extent - Germany. There is absolutely no reason why the UK can't do the same.

Go take a cycle holiday in the Netherlands. I defy you to tell me you didn't enjoy it more than cycling here.

 

[BentMikey]

I am still wondering why you are scared of riding on roads? Its like you think by moving cyclists off roads is the solution to getting people cycling when in fact it just creates more problems for those who actually use the road.

Its like those who claim Cycle craft is killing cycling because Franklin is against segregated cycle facilities, yet I am sure most of you have read this book. Adding pretty pictures of cycling in the EU is all good and well but the reality is that in the UK (maybe with the exception of London who has £900m worth of investment) will never see anything like this, they will get a cheap imitation if anything.

Why can you not see that less bikes on roads equals more aggression, poorer awareness and more deaths to cyclists? By sticking your own heads in the sand and dreaming thinking that any government will spend anything near needed is a joke and you are kidding yourselves. Improved cycle facilities on UK roads and changes in Law are a quicker more real move forward.

More aggression and bad behaviour on the roads in the Netherlands? Bwwwaaaahahahahahaha!

Just because we on here are in the 1-2% of the population brave enough to ride on UK roads doesn't make it right, and it doesn't make it a better solution than the Netherlands. The UK is not 1/1000th as nice to ride in as the Netherlands.

5mph load of tosh. Get some experience and actually ride there before making up such a tall tale.

 

[CopperBrompton]

These are the people who are scared to ride on roads in Britain, but do so happily in the Netherlands:

And the beauty of it is it's self-perpetuating: those kids grow up on bicycles, and see it as their birth-right to have good cycling infrastructure, so there is no way any future government can ever stop investing in it.

It's absolutely normal to cycle to school in the Netherlands from day one. Show me one single town or the city in the UK where that is true.

 

[snorri]

Improved cycle facilities on UK roads and changes in Law are a quicker more real move forward.

What would you propose?

 

[Nigeyy]

Any Dutch people here? I would love to hear their opinion..... FWIW I loved cycling over there. And while it is nice cycling in some parts of the UK and USA, the infrastructure is positively Stone Age in comparison.

 

[lukesdad]

With all massive due respect to 'roadies', the required infrastructure isn't going to be for you. It is needed to enable 'normal' people to do 'normal' riding. The largest group of people disenfranchised from cycling in the UK are not sports cyclists (although that number will increase), but utility cyclists. There are countless people who would/could/should cycle, but don't for one simple reason - they're scared. That is a frankly shameful position to be in considering we're supposed to be a civilised western democracy?

Rubbish, most people who do not cycle, do not for one simple reason, they re lazy ! There is a clue in the pics and it ain't cycling infrastructure.

 

[Leodis]

What would you propose?

It doesn't matter, I shall wait and see when the UK invests the amount needed, I think it is £1.3b a year to be able to have the wonderful Dutch or Danish cycling infrastructures. Anyway, lets hope when or if we ever get this standard that it proves me wrong and we will have a great network "safe" for everyone to pootle around towns and cities.