We really are treated as the poor cousin aren't we?

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snorri

Legendary Member
a great network "safe" for everyone to pootle around towns and cities.
The rural situation is often worse than the urban for vulnerable road users where increasing volumes of motor traffic and higher vehicle speeds are deterring local people from cycling and walking and isolating those with no access to a motor vehicle.
 

jdtate101

Ex-Fatman
The reason why a "dutch" infrastructure will never work here is very simple....space. For whatever reason the original dutch city planners decided to built very wide streets (even before the advent of mass cycling and mass motoring), so squeezing in a couple of bike paths alongside the roads wasn't too hard, just shave a bit off the road width and a bit off the footpath.

Then look at somewhere like London, a medieval era city that's been ripped up and rebuilt over the years, but the street size remains mostly the same as it was. When the road is only wide enough for two cars and the pavement is already narrow, there's just no room for a segregated bike path. When we do have a new build town (ie Milton Keynes, Stevenage, Bracknell spring to mind), they can plan in the space from the start (these town aren't perfect, but much better than most in terms of cycling infrastructure).

In our older towns, unless you are advocating either banning cars or demolishing buildings...nothing's going to change. What they tend to do is just turn the footpath into shared use, and we all know how bad that can be. Personally I'd like to see restrictions on car use in urban areas and more use of park and ride schemes, but that would cause an almighty stink with BMW man.
 

BentMikey

Rider of Seolferwulf
Location
South London
Not enough space? B0ll0cks mate. The Netherlands is no different.

I challenge you to look up pictures of streets here in the UK before cars were parked along them, and then compare with modern streetview and you'll understand what has stolen all the space. The Netherlands has simply taken space away from cars to make cycling facilities, and large amounts of traffic have shifted from cars to bicycles.
 

stowie

Legendary Member
The reason why a "dutch" infrastructure will never work here is very simple....space. For whatever reason the original dutch city planners decided to built very wide streets (even before the advent of mass cycling and mass motoring), so squeezing in a couple of bike paths alongside the roads wasn't too hard, just shave a bit off the road width and a bit off the footpath.

Then look at somewhere like London, a medieval era city that's been ripped up and rebuilt over the years, but the street size remains mostly the same as it was. When the road is only wide enough for two cars and the pavement is already narrow, there's just no room for a segregated bike path. When we do have a new build town (ie Milton Keynes, Stevenage, Bracknell spring to mind), they can plan in the space from the start (these town aren't perfect, but much better than most in terms of cycling infrastructure).

In our older towns, unless you are advocating either banning cars or demolishing buildings...nothing's going to change. What they tend to do is just turn the footpath into shared use, and we all know how bad that can be. Personally I'd like to see restrictions on car use in urban areas and more use of park and ride schemes, but that would cause an almighty stink with BMW man.


Most older cities in the Netherlands have narrow streets and buildings directly adjoining pavements. In fact I think this may have been one of the reasons that they took a decision on promoting the bicycle - the town centres were simply becoming gridlocked with cars.

What the Netherlands does very well, and often gets missed, is that they control transit through these small streets, frequently reducing it to local access only, or even banning cars altogether. So where do the cars go? In many cities if you want to move from North to South you cannot go through the centre but have to use the bypass. Which extends the journey time by car significantly but stops the small streets being clogged with through traffic.

I think the segregated lanes are but a small part of the dutch system. They actually distinguish between roads - which are for transit, and streets which are local and shouldn't carry through traffic. And the street systems are made for the convenience of the pedestrian and cyclist as opposed to roads where modes may be segregated as they are designed for heavy traffic use. We can have as many cycle paths as we like, but we (or rather architects and town planners) have an attitude that every available piece of tarmac should be available for vehicle travel. Whilst this is the norm we won't get anywhere with putting in cycle lanes etc. Because the priority is motorised vehicle travel and everything else is secondary.

To see the effects of the views of those who plan and create our road systems, have a look at the Olympic area in Stratford. There, they had any amount of space (since it hadn't been defined) to create their road system and what do we end up with? Hugely wide roads with at least two lanes each way to carry local traffic going to Westfield, pavements which are isolated from either side of the road and a cycle way on said pavements which starts and stops and is completely disjointed. And this is what they manage when they have a blank sheet of paper.

Half of the problem lies with those who design and build our urban environment. They are still busy modeling traffic flow when - at least in London - more and more people are starting to find other ways to travel because the policies are simply not working. Planners and architects are lagging, not leading, change and probably as big a part of the problem as anything else.
 

Jezston

Über Member
Location
London
Not enough space? B0ll0cks mate. The Netherlands is no different.

I challenge you to look up pictures of streets here in the UK before cars were parked along them, and then compare with modern streetview and you'll understand what has stolen all the space. The Netherlands has simply taken space away from cars to make cycling facilities, and large amounts of traffic have shifted from cars to bicycles.

Mikey, I've met you and get the impression you're a good bloke - but if you want to bring people over to your way of thinking you might want to try being less ... 'confrontational' on this thread.
 

Leodis

Veteran
Location
Moortown, Leeds
[QUOTE 2619275, member: 45"]No it doesn't. It's the driver attitude which is the problem.

There are few roads that I won't cycle on, and whether there's a cycle path at the side makes no difference to me. But I do expect there to be an alternative option for my 8-year-old on the roads that are more difficult.[/quote]


Of course it does, if you reduce the amount of cyclists on the roads then cycle awareness of drivers suffers and drivers think they own the roads even more leading to more cyclist deaths.

The UK will never have a system like other EU countries, the best option is making changes to law i.e. min pass distance and maybe move towards a Dutch law for example and improve cycle lanes on main roads and give cyclists more priority. I might be wrong but I cannot see the UK spending £1.2b a year within the next few years.
 

Nigeyy

Legendary Member
Believe it or not, the "there's no space" argument gets used over here (especially for the older cities like Boston). I also think that's not valid too. It's just a lack of political will (and admittedly the popular vote) that prevents it.

Not enough space? B0ll0cks mate. The Netherlands is no different.

I challenge you to look up pictures of streets here in the UK before cars were parked along them, and then compare with modern streetview and you'll understand what has stolen all the space. The Netherlands has simply taken space away from cars to make cycling facilities, and large amounts of traffic have shifted from cars to bicycles.
 

GrumpyGregry

Here for rides.
If the political will existed space would be found. It doesn't so it won't. Though I would welcome it for those who can't face the roads, I can't see ANY of the UK's political parties doing anything, other than tokenism, in regards to dedicated cycle infrastructure on the Dutch model, in my lifetime, or even that of my kids, so I concentrate my efforts on traffic volume and speed reduction efforts to free up the roads we already have. Which, at the start of this month, resulted in some moron threatening to 'knock my block off' for daring to collect signatures for a 20's plenty petition.
 

redhanded

Active Member
The reason why a "dutch" infrastructure will never work here is very simple....space. For whatever reason the original dutch city planners decided to built very wide streets (even before the advent of mass cycling and mass motoring), so squeezing in a couple of bike paths alongside the roads wasn't too hard, just shave a bit off the road width and a bit off the footpath.

Then look at somewhere like London, a medieval era city that's been ripped up and rebuilt over the years, but the street size remains mostly the same as it was .

See here for the "not enough space in London" argument being shot down and how bad Bracknell actually is for cyclists.

http://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.com/2012/07/10/the-physical-constraints-of-londons-streets/
http://aseasyasridingabike.wordpres...d-is-the-cycling-infrastructure-in-bracknell/
 

MickL

Über Member
What about the Germans they have it pretty good as well, growing up in Germany, I was able to cycle from our estate outside of the city area and cycle all the way into the city centre (Munster) and back again with out having to use the road, pretty much every where was easy to ride to and back with out to much hassle it wasn't unusual to see at least 6 of us spending the summer exploring the city and surrounding areas, so when moving back to England, cycling became more about cycling to my mates house rather than trips out to the other side of the city. Im not scared of cycling on the roads but I have changed my commute so the routes I do take are a lot quieter than the main drags into and out of Birmingham because riding in traffic is more a grind than a nice ride.

Here's some light reading about Munster and its cycling infrastructure.
http://www.muenster.de/en/cycling_capital.php
 

GrumpyGregry

Here for rides.
Fnarr. Though on reflection, with my new found enthusiasm for longboarding, some decent segregated infrastructure could come in very handy, once all the cyclists have gone home.... so perhaps I might go dutch after all.
 

Pat "5mph"

A kilogrammicaly challenged woman
Moderator
Location
Glasgow
Rubbish, most people who do not cycle, do not for one simple reason, they re lazy ! There is a clue in the pics and it ain't cycling infrastructure. :whistle:
Sorry, but this is not quite right. I am involved in a ladies cycling group, we focus on getting more women to cycle for transport. The top impediment is fear of traffic. Even from drivers that would like beginning to cycle to work, the question I get asked first is: "show me a route segregated from motorized traffic"
The second one is: "how do you change a flat?" :smile:
Well I remember my first commuting months. I'm not ashamed to say I took to the pavements till I could reach the safety of the cycle path.
When we rode to the Scottish parliament from Glasgow to Edinburgh earlier in the year we had 2 ladies with us, both car drivers (know the rules of the roads), that had never cycled on the road before. They were fine along the early Sunday morning deserted country roads. Once we reached Edinburgh city centre they dismounted, refusing to ride in traffic.
You can actually sense somebody's fear of getting hurt when riding next to them: I would never presume lazy persons feared for their lives.
 

stowie

Legendary Member
Fnarr. Though on reflection, with my new found enthusiasm for longboarding, some decent segregated infrastructure could come in very handy, once all the cyclists have gone home.... so perhaps I might go dutch after all.


Use it on the road. I am sure you could adapt cyclecraft.

Slightly OT, I used to see a roller blader gliding through traffic on Hoe Street in Walthamstow. He would wear skin tight lycra body suit which had little leds for use at night. Astonishing.
 

CopperBrompton

Bicycle: a means of transport between cake-stops
Location
London
The 'no space' argument is, I'm afraid, a nonsense. Amsterdam's streets were no wider than London's. The wide ones (and there are a huge number of those, as the linked page illustrates) allow plenty of space for segregated cycle paths. The rest, as in Amsterdam, can simply be prioritised for cycling.

Will that cause gridlock? No: because when you make cycling feel safe and enjoyable, people get out of their cars and start cycling. The people who were in cars are now on bicycles.
 
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