Weight watchers 2022

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Julia9054

Guru
Location
Knaresborough
Strictly speaking, they would need to be all in place and healthy/optimally functioning too. Sadly not everyone has the luxury. Probably best to limit the toxin input where possible in the first place.
With my biologist’s head on, my issue is with the concept of a toxin. Actual definition being a poisonous substance but people usually mean the byproducts of our own metabolism (dealt with more than adequately by functioning liver and kidneys) or, even more vaguely, foods that are not particularly good for our health in large quantities.
 

Etern4l

Active Member
With my biologist’s head on, my issue is with the concept of a toxin. Actual definition being a poisonous substance but people usually mean the byproducts of our own metabolism (dealt with more than adequately by functioning liver and kidneys) or, even more vaguely, foods that are not particularly good for our health in large quantities.

Great point, moreover toxins are substances produced by living organisms (rather than any poisonous substances). I would not be personally too concerned about our bodies being a danger to ourselves by way of excreting toxins. To be fair, however, what was probably meant earlier is "toxic chemicals". In that case there is obviously a serious problem, and mostly a foodborne one, e.g. heavy metals, dioxins, pesticides, PCBs, or perhaps even PFOA, PTFE, benzopyrene etc. In that context, the comment on a benefit of fasting in terms of toxic chemical removal might not be groundless? One would hope that at least some of the said chemicals would be released from cells destroyed through autophagy and then excreted with some nonzero probability. In reality though, even if some viable exit routes for those toxic chemical exist, unless one becomes a Himalayan monk for a decade, the proportion of cells "recycled" through autophagy is probably too small to significantly move the needle. Still, I guess every little helps!

Again, seems much more sensible to just try and prevent those harmful substances from entering our systems in the first place. This would bring us to the question: which foods are most likely to be contaminated (put another way: what are the foods with highest expected concentrations of toxic chemicals)?
 
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icowden

Veteran
Location
Surrey

Yes, that looks pretty conclusive.
Current research consistently links eating more red meat and processed meat to a higher risk of the disease.
A diet rich in fruits and vegetables and low in red meat may help reduce the risk of colorectal cancer.
Not.

At best, even Cancer.net puts the food risk on the low side, unless you have co-morbidities. For example, if you are obese, inactive, smoke 20 a day, have IBD and are over 60, then your risk is way up. On the other hand, if you are fairly fit, don't smoke, don't weigh 300 pounds and like some ham and bacon occasionally, I think it's probably OK.

Oh and this?
You may be a lucky outlier too, the only way to find out is to follow your grandma's bacon diet and find out. For science!
This is just being obtuse. No-one suggested a bacon diet. What I suggested is what most doctors and dieticians will advise. Try to eat better, improve your food habits, but an occasional helping of a little of what you really like isn't going to kill you.
 

Fat Lars

Well-Known Member
This is a video from Youtube. It features Dr Ken Berry. it contains all the references at the bottom. He particularly talks about The WHO study re red meat and processed red meat causes cancer which has been mentioned. Just imagine it is me saying all this. I wouldn't want any of the smear mongerers coming along and discrediting the guy, who is a hero of mine.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qwyjo-NgQsE
 
Great point, moreover toxins are substances produced by living organisms (rather than any poisonous substances). I would not be personally too concerned about our bodies being a danger to ourselves by way of excreting toxins. To be fair, however, what was probably meant earlier is "toxic chemicals". In that case there is obviously a serious problem, and mostly a foodborne one, e.g. heavy metals, dioxins, pesticides, PCBs, or perhaps even PFOA, PTFE, benzopyrene etc. In that context, the comment on a benefit of fasting in terms of toxic chemical removal might not be groundless? One would hope that at least some of the said chemicals would be released from cells destroyed through autophagy and then excreted with some nonzero probability. In reality though, even if some viable exit routes for those toxic chemical exist, unless one becomes a Himalayan monk for a decade, the proportion of cells "recycled" through autophagy is probably too small to significantly move the needle. Still, I guess every little helps!

Again, seems much more sensible to just try and prevent those harmful substances from entering our systems in the first place. This would bring us to the question: which foods are most likely to be contaminated (put another way: what are the foods with highest expected concentrations of toxic chemicals)?

When I quoted toxins earlier it was in relation to the known effects of autophagy removing toxins and actually improving liver function. I didn't think this was anyway debatable because so much data supports it. Fasting leads to autophagy and autophagy has many positive effects on the body according to a lot of research done with both people and animals. If you are interested in the benefits of fasting and autophagy then google the studies done. Ultimately a thread like this might make you aware of the benefits but until you have read some of the studies you may not be convinced by them.

Autophagy also seems to play an essential role in the immune system by cleaning out toxins and infectious agents.

There is evidenceTrusted Source that autophagy may improve the outlook for cells with infectious and neurodegenerative diseases by controlling inflammation.

Another review articleTrusted Source explains that autophagy helps to protect cells against incoming microbes.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/autophagy
 

Julia9054

Guru
Location
Knaresborough
Autophagy is a natural cellular process which occurs all the time to remove or recycle the products of cellular metabolism. The article you link to takes a typically cautious approach and is not a ringing endorsement of attempting to increase autophagy by either fasting or by inducing cellular inflammation through exercise. Increasing autophagy may have negative as well as positive effects. The article makes the point that most of the research has so far been done in animals and further studies need to be done in order to extrapolate the results to humans.
Here is a screenshot of the article summary if others don’t want to read the whole article
631990
 

icowden

Veteran
Location
Surrey
Fasting leads to autophagy and autophagy has many positive effects on the body according to a lot of research done with both people and animals.
That's the bit that none of your studies support. Autophagy as a process is documented and researched in those papers. What is less clear is whether we can usefully *increase* autophagy either through fasting or exercise, and that even if you can. whether that increase necessarily assists across the body or whether it is only certain areas that are stimulated.

As your last link says:

Researchers have linked autophagy to several positive health effects. They also believe that a person might be able to induce autophagy by fasting.
 

Etern4l

Active Member
When I quoted toxins earlier it was in relation to the known effects of autophagy removing toxins and actually improving liver function. I didn't think this was anyway debatable because so much data supports it. Fasting leads to autophagy and autophagy has many positive effects on the body according to a lot of research done with both people and animals. If you are interested in the benefits of fasting and autophagy then google the studies done. Ultimately a thread like this might make you aware of the benefits but until you have read some of the studies you may not be convinced by them.

Autophagy also seems to play an essential role in the immune system by cleaning out toxins and infectious agents.

There is evidenceTrusted Source that autophagy may improve the outlook for cells with infectious and neurodegenerative diseases by controlling inflammation.

Another review articleTrusted Source explains that autophagy helps to protect cells against incoming microbes.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/autophagy

Just on the toxin cleanup point, there are no specific references regarding this particular effect in the article.

"Autophagy also seems to play an essential role in the immune system by cleaning out toxins and infectious agents."

We don't know what the author, apparently a PhD holder, meant by "toxins" and what evidence, if any, is available.
 
Just on the toxin cleanup point, there are no specific references regarding this particular effect in the article.

"Autophagy also seems to play an essential role in the immune system by cleaning out toxins and infectious agents."

We don't know what the author, apparently a PhD holder, meant by "toxins" and what evidence, if any, is available.

I'm confused by your reply isn't toxins just a general description for toxic substances and could be anything really that is damaging to the human body and needs to be removed. I thought there were 100s maybe 1000s of such substances that the human body can absorb through pollutants, processed food and just perhaps naturally occuring materials we don't want in our body maybe metals and pollens. Our body removes some of these anyway but the point is Autophagy has been shown to improve this function. There is a lot of sources on this page but often it takes time to find the actual papers. Why would he even attempt to list toxins which surely would be different for different people?

https://www.bluezones.com/2018/10/f...y-nobel-prize-winning-research-on-cell-aging/
 

Etern4l

Active Member
I'm confused by your reply isn't toxins just a general description for toxic substances and could be anything really that is damaging to the human body and needs to be removed. I thought there were 100s maybe 1000s of such substances that the human body can absorb through pollutants, processed food and just perhaps naturally occuring materials we don't want in our body maybe metals and pollens. Our body removes some of these anyway but the point is Autophagy has been shown to improve this function. There is a lot of sources on this page but often it takes time to find the actual papers. Why would he even attempt to list toxins which surely would be different for different people?

https://www.bluezones.com/2018/10/f...y-nobel-prize-winning-research-on-cell-aging/
No, strictly speaking toxins are harmful substances produced by living organisms, as opposed to naturally occurring or man-made. Please review our earlier discussion with @Julia9054.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxin

Still, it's a bit of a finer point - if we correct this and use the boarder term "toxic substances", it would be good to see research regarding the effect of autophagy on their concentrations in human tissue (or at least animal tissue).
 
That's the bit that none of your studies support. Autophagy as a process is documented and researched in those papers. What is less clear is whether we can usefully *increase* autophagy either through fasting or exercise, and that even if you can. whether that increase necessarily assists across the body or whether it is only certain areas that are stimulated.

As your last link says:

There is more data here;

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3106288/
 
No, strictly speaking toxins are harmful substances produced by living organisms, as opposed to naturally occurring or man-made. Please review our earlier discussion with @Julia9054.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxin

Still, it's a bit of a finer point - if we correct this and use the boarder term "toxic substances", it would be good to see research regarding the effect of autophagy on their concentrations in human tissue (or at least animal tissue).

Thats a fair point I missed that. Does seem like I'm not alone in making that mistake as toxins as a term looks more broadly used than it should be. What is the general term for toxic particles of any origin because I'm sure in many articles that is the term they are looking for when they just use toxins.
 

Etern4l

Active Member

Thanks, a bit as per Julia, the best I could find is this:

"For example, in vitro models have shown that starvation in neuronal cell lines can remove toxic molecules and damaged mitochondria from neurons.2224"

OK, in vitro is a start. The first paper is a broad overview, just scanned but missed any info on removal of those exogenous toxic substances I mentioned earlier. Just looking at the tiles the second paper deals with Parkinson's specifically, whereas the third seems to regard Alzheimer's.
Haven't read properly, and it wouldn't do much good if I did :smile:, but judging by the summaries a lot of evidence points to neuroprotective benefits of autophagy, which is great. That said, removal of novel man-made toxic chemicals such as PCBs etc. could be a tougher proposition, as obviously the human body has had close to zero chance to evolve such mechanisms. Heavy metals could be interesting though, as this is something our distant forefathers might have had to deal with.
 

Fat Lars

Well-Known Member
To autophagy or not to autophagy that is the question.

Never mind the other benefits of fasting; reduction of inflammation, the increase in HGH, the boosting of cognitive function, the weight loss, and for all you athletes out there an increase in VO2.
 
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