Which Bike!??! Help please!!

[pkeenan]

Hello! This is my first time on this forum, and I'm coming to you all in need of advice!

I'm currently in the market for a expedition bike (yes, full expedition!) and have narrowed this down to 3 main contenders. See what you think and I' be grateful for any comments.

All of them will be equipped with a Rohloff hub, butterfly handle bars, SKS mud guards, tubus racks.

(In no particular order!)

KOGA-MIYATA Traveller KS-TR 28

This will clock in at around £3000 , but will no doubt be worth every penny. This bike has been specd with a SONdelux front and Son Led eDelux front light (a whopping 80lux light) [The rear light is able to be fixed up with a dynamo, but I don't think it can be with the Rohloff in place at the back?], a Brooks B17, and Shimano hydraulic disc brakes. 700c wheels, Schwalbe Marathons, and an aluminum frame (which could have my name on it if I wanted!).


SANTOS Travelmaster 2.8 Alu http://www.santosbik...elmaster-28-alu

This is another epic and awesome bike from Holland. It'll cost £2800, which is a fair bit cheaper than the Koga, however: it doesn't have as good a dynamo hub, or dynamo light (ie - cheaper, heavier, not as powerful, and not as efficient). This isn't a massive deal for me - how much riding will I end up doing at night anyways?! But the idea is that this will be the Bike Of My Life. I can spec this up almost exactly the same as the Koga above - *apart from the brakes*. This is one of the big problems I'm having with this bike - even if I didn't want discs on this for now, there isn't even the option to change - which I'm not massively happy about...

QOROZ Expedition Won http://www.qoroz.co.uk/expedition-won/

WOW. If you haven't come across this bike company yet - check them out. This bike will fetch the highest price (no cheaper than £3600). It's basically still in development, however I spoke to Chris from qoroz on the phone, who says he reckons that the production model will be available by July.
This will be a titanium frame - twice the strength of aluminum, half as light. Made by someone who once inspected components from planes and propeller blades that were made with this element.
This bike could be set up in exactly the same way as I have specced for the KOGA (with disc brakes!), but will cost infinetly more... but seriously - I would never need another bike. In my life. It would be the ulitimate machine.

So there's the stuff about the 3 bikes I've narrowed down - here's a tiny bit more background:

I'll be getting the KOGA from Cyclesense, Tadcaster - the leading dealer for KOGA in the UK. This will no doubt be a great experience, though what I haven't yet worked out is whether I am going to have to pay an extra fee on top of the actual bike....

Both the Santos and Qoroz would come through MSG Bikes, Lancing. Alasdair and Shenagh Scadding run this, and are considered The People for buying bikes from, particularly expedition bikes.

The Qoroz would be amazing - but there's no certainty as to whether I can even get it in the coming months. I could wait, of course - but I was really hoping to have this for the summer. Chris from Qoroz says July is realistic, but Alasdair from MSG says there is no certain time scale for this bike. Do I wait or do I just leave it?!

The Santos is the cheapest, and the one I can't spec in the way I want. But these very bikes are extremely good - round the world cyclists use it (James Bowthorpe for one, though he's now sponsored by qoroz..).
If I were to get this bike, I'd get Alasdair Scadding's famous ergonomic bike fit. Part of me would like to go with this just for that reason...

As you can see from the rambling nature of this post - I am really struggling to go with one over the other! They're all so good. The Koga is probably the safest option, the Santos is the cheapest and would be fitted by MSG, and the Qoroz is probably going to be The Bike Of The Future, and would also be fitted by MSG (Alasdair from MSG and Chris from Qoroz co-designed and built it).

I'd really value working on the fit and customisation here in Britain, and furthermore if the actual bike was British - that'd be cool! But the Koga is a beauty.
My budget was £3000 - but as you can see, the temptation of the Qoroz has brought me to consider breaking that.... As I said - this is meant to be The Bike for the rest of my life, and I'm planning on doing a 28000 mile tour on it.

Any help, anyone!?!?

Many thanks!!

p

 

[Dave Davenport]

Surprised you're not considering a Thorn Nomad or a Hewitt.

 

[stephenjubb]

so you need a bike for any area of the world, implied if you are doing 28,000 miles.

your breaking the rule of keeping it simple.

to me a most important part of any expedition is the ability to repair items.

I do not care for the alluminium/steel/titanium frame preference argument, all that matters is that I can get a steel frame repaired anywhere, titanium cannot (if it breaks your in real trouble as it needs specialist welding). I would go with steel but an alluminium frame built for strength could be used if one wishes, I just like self sufficiency.

I do not care for the 700c/26 inch wheel size debate, if I'm going world wide then 26inch as the parts are available everywhere.

Hyrolic brakes - can they be repaired in the field? Can you carry spare parts or easily available? If yes then these are good as rim wear is reduced.

Rohloff - a good bit of kit, supposedly never goes wrong, but if they do you may be waiting 1 or 2 weeks for a replacement. I personally prefer derailleurs - I can strip, repair and ease of availablity (ideally 8 speed for longer lasting).

I would go for none of them.

If you have the time it is better to get your own moutain bicycle frame designed with expedition touring in mind then choose your own components (with the comments in mind) for expedition use and build it yourself.

You then have your bicycle built by yourself with the knowledge of how to repair.

Quite often today especially in a technological rich society we end up with something too complex.

I suggest look on www.crazyguyonabike.com at every one who has world toured and look at their kit.

Every component you use needs to be justified for whereever you are going - why? so that you (I repeat you) are happy that the bike will meet your needs in all conditions, only then can you have confidence to undertake the trip.

I do know people will come on and give differing opinions on wheel size etc, this is good, helps one think and learn but the above paragraph must be stuck too after listening to everyones advise. Do this and you will be fine

 

[pkeenan]

Many thanks for the comments so far.

I have looked at the Thorn Nomad - and hadn't discounted it I guess. I'm so indecisive about this whole thing, there will be hundreds of makes I've overlooked.

I have actually been seriously looking at a Tour Terrain Silkroad, a steel frame which could indeed have the spec I want - I haven't ruled it out either.

stephenjubb - I'm totally in agreement with your ideal that the bike ought to be repairable. However, I'm mainly going to be on paths and roads for the tour. 26" will be good too, though being a road cyclist, I guess I'm more drawn into the 700c, which I believe will be fine for this kind of tour provided the wheels are up to it. We'll see.
Also with disc brakes, one can change the wheels from 26" to 700c and back provided there's enough ground clearance (which I know the Koga provides). I don't know whether the qoroz/santos can do that.

I get your argument about the steel frame. The Santos do exactly the same bike in both aluminum as well as steel, so this is fine. The Koga is alu only. However, titanuim is *way* stronger than steel... Well - it is the same strength as steel but 45% lighter, and therefore it's strength to weight ratio is better. There's a reason that this is what they send to space, and have on aircraft where carbon isn't strong enough...
Yes - it'll be harder to get repaired, but it's less likely to need repairing.

But you would go for none of them!!! Which is intriguing!! Both the Santos and the Koga have been used in recent round the world records, and Mark Beaumont used the Koga for a massive cycle down the Americas. They're obviously tough and able to hack the life of touring.

Maybe the Tout Terrain Silkroad would be the better option!?

 

[betty swollocks]

With a Rohloff-equipped bike, have a look at:-
a) how is the chain kept taut?
b) how easy is it to tighten it?
c) how easy is it to get the rear wheel out and in again.
Thorn have got these issues nailed.
I'd go for a Thorn. But, I have a Thorn with Rohloff, so maybe I'm biased

The Rohloff has done over 50,000 miles now with only and occasional oil, chain, chainring, sprocket change. Original ceramic rim too. Just does what it says on the tin and keeps getting better.

 

[stephenjubb]

for your budget I would look at bike friday pocket expedition folding bike

A rugged folding bicycle for mountain biking and expedition touring.

http://www.bikefold.com/bike_friday_pocket_expedition.htm

not only has it all the advantages mentioned previously (it can be customised any way your like) with the trailer and right suitcase, around 7 kilos (not the standard one supplied by bike friday), the bike folds up and goes into the suitcase with the trailer.

This means easy airline/rail/bus/boat travel, no problems with keeping the bike in a hotel, with the right tent it will go inside, it adds a lot of security/portability options full size bikes don't have.

To save weight you could get titanium racks/titanium trailer and the weight comes even further. with your budget of 4500 US dollars they could supply anything you like.

you can skip the trailer and go for panniers, with a light bag you could fold it and put it inside and still have easy rail/bus/boat travel and hotel/tent security.

 

[Moodyman]

Surprised you're not considering a Thorn Nomad or a Hewitt.

Fully agree. With your budget, you ideally want a custom-built steel from the above two. Also consider Roberts Roughstuff or Bob Jackson in Leeds.

 

[andym]

I agree with pretty much most of what Stephen Jubb said in his first post (don't particularly agree with him about folding bikes though), especially the trade-off between on the one hand 'fit-and-forget' components which are low-maintenance but if they go wrong you can't fix them and, on the other hand, components which require a bit more ongoing maintenance but which are easily fixed and/or replaced.

Hydraulic brakes are very reliable, but personally I'd go for Avid BB7 cable brakes - slightly more ongoing maintenance but a bit more resilient - and a cable is easily fixed at the roadside while a leaking hydraulic system is a bit more involved (not impossible though). If you go for Avids with 203mm discs you definitely won't be sacrificing stopping power.

Titanium is lovely stuff, and if you were going for a top-end road touring bike then fine, but you said you were looking for an expedition bike. I'm not sure that laying out a wodge of extra cash to save a few hundred grams is really worthwhile given the fact that if did break or crack you would n't be able to repair it. OK it's unlikely, and if the worst came to the worst you could ditch it and get a new frame, but even so ....

I'd also take a hardheaded look at prices. Bear in mind that the pound has collapsed against the euro - and I think the price of the Koga Miyata for example reflects that (I don't know about the others). I'm guessing that you are planning the trip of a lifetime and it's very easy to get lured into thinking that by spending more you are getting better - however, there comes a point at which you can be laying out more money for little real benefit. Before forking out a fortune on a bike I would sit down with a spreadsheet and spec a bike with the components you want.

 

[pkeenan]

andym - Good point about that - you are right that I am probably getting slightly engrossed, and not thinking money

I also see your point about titanuim - but the whole point with this is not the weight, it's the sheer strength, which gives steel a run for its money. I'm defo not a man thinking about saving grams... Though, as you say, it wont be repaired in the event of a problem. Steel will.

Will check out the Avids. The hydraulics were never the important thing, more just the preservation of the rims - so a cable disc brake would be ideal - thanks for the heads up.

With all that's been said so far, I'm considering the Tout Terrain Silkroad. A steel frame, which can take the discs.
(Not so keen on the built in rack, though from what I've read it can take quite a load with ease.)

Thanks for the advice so far! This is the kind of stuff I've been needing to think about.

 

[willem]

Here is my list:
Rohloff: yes. It really is ueber reliable. I would prefer an excentric bottoim bracket to tension the chain.
SON hub and light: yes if you think you need one. The quality is superb, and the light output amazing. I would probably choouse the SON 28 rather than the SONdelux for a bike like this because it makes for a marginally stronger wheel, and has more output so you can also feeed an Ewerk. Feed the taillight from the hub (I don't understand your thing about the Rohloff being an issue here).
Frame material: my preference is for steel because of the ride quality. A good frame should not break, and to be honest high quality thin walled steel is not particularly rapairable in the field either. Probably harder than aluminium. Also, aluminium frames have a nasty habit to wear on the threads.
Wheel size: 26 inch, no discussion as far as I am concerned.
Brakes: Magura Hydraulic rim brakes. These have great modulation, are very convenient, and if you really cannot repair them, you can buy a cheap replacement v brake anywhere these days. Only: bring enough spare pads, and these are not easy to get.
Personally, I would go to a reputable UK frame builder and get a custom frame.
Willem

 

[pkeenan]

Willem - that is extremely helpful. Thank you!

I agree that a good frame should not break. Which brings me to think that everyone seems to talk about steel being necessary because it's repairable anywhere - but how many people have actually been in that situation?

I have read loads of forums over the last few years, and never actually heard of someone having that happen to them.

 

[vernon]

Fully agree. With your budget, you ideally want a custom-built steel from the above two. Also consider Roberts Roughstuff or Bob Jackson in Leeds.

Woodrups in Leeds as also worth looking at. They have a nice looking hand built expedition bike about to debut:

S&S couplings
Rohloff hub
Belt drive
Steel frame.

It looks the business and I've god a test ride pencilled in.

 

[vernon]

Willem - that is extremely helpful. Thank you!

I agree that a good frame should not break. Which brings me to think that everyone seems to talk about steel being necessary because it's repairable anywhere - but how many people have actually been in that situation?

Me - twice.

The first time I got the frame repaired within an hour of failure which wasn't bad fior eight o'clock on a Friday night.
The second time I removed the Brooks B17 seat and abandoned the bike in Orleans having bought a Decathlon hybrid as a replacement.

 

[willem]

Well it does happen, but not often. In essence a well designed and well built touring frame should last at least 100000 km, and the same applies to the Rohloff and SON hubs. It may be wise to have those serviced completely after 50000 km, however. At that moment you may also want to replace things like the seatpost, the stem, and certainly the handlebar and all bolts. By that time you will also have had the wheels rebuilt at least once, and will have fitted new pedals at least once if not more. If you fit a top quality headset like Chris King and a bottom bracket like SKF or Phil Wood, these should last the life of the bike. I am not sure about the cranks (I might replace those half way as well), and I would certainly also replace the racks after 50000 km, if not before. Of course, you can use all this stuff until it breaks, but I am all in favour of preventive maintenance just as you do with a car. In the end, that is cheaper and far less hassle.
Oh and I would avoid a belt drive.
Willem

 

[vernon]

Oh and I would avoid a belt drive.
Willem

James Bowthorpe didn't on his record breaking round the world bike ride.