Why can't I just do it - Lawyer's lips drive me mad!

[Dogtrousers]

Of course quick releases originated in racing, where seconds do matter. I think it's fair point made by several here that a major effect of LLs is to force you to set the tension again every time, when normally you can leave it at a safe level. That probably takes longer than unscrewing to remove the wheel.

Overall, probably comes down to whether you're old enough to have experienced bikes before LLs, where QRs were just easier to use.

I've a fair amount of experience on bikes with and without LLs, and also using wheelnuts and those butterfly nut thingies. Its true there are differences but I must be a very easy going kinda guy because I've just adapted to each one without much problem. There's not that much difference between them. I've never used thru axles though. Maybe they would annoy me? Who knows.

Although it should be said that I'm rarely in much of a hurry. Front wheels only come off if I have a puncture (not often) or during a particularly enthusiastic bike clean (again not as often as I should) or maybe some maintenance or other.

I suppose we're all different in what little things irk us. For me it's the fact that I have to do two clicks to sign on to my VPN when one would be entirely sufficient. Why the extra click? It drives me mad. So I can appreciate the OP's viewpoint even if I don't share it.

 

[twentysix by twentyfive]

I have a non mechanical pal who has adapted to LLs by only loosely finger tightening the QR (still very floppy). So in his case LL's aren't a safety feature particularly. When he tells me he's taken a wheel out I then fix it all for him.

 

[Mazz]

Excuse my ignorance, but why is it difficult to remove the wheel, even if the fork dropout have got LLs (never even knew what they were until I read this thread). Don't you just unwind the QR lever a bit more to clear the lips?

 

[presta]

Excuse my ignorance, but why is it difficult to remove the wheel, even if the fork dropout have got LLs (never even knew what they were until I read this thread). Don't you just unwind the QR lever a bit more to clear the lips?

The point is that if you don't have LLs you don't need to unscrew the skewer at all, which means you don't have to faff around readjusting the tension again when putting the wheel back in.

 

[Mazz]

The point is that if you don't have LLs you don't need to unscrew the skewer at all, which means you don't have to faff around readjusting the tension again when putting the wheel back in.

Yep, I'm definitely being thick, I still don't get it 😆. I went to check the front fork on my bike and it does have a "lip" on the dropout , that I'd never noticed before.

Thing is, even without the LL, you'd still need a skewer otherwise there's nothing holding the wheel in place!

 

[fossyant]

Excuse my ignorance, but why is it difficult to remove the wheel, even if the fork dropout have got LLs (never even knew what they were until I read this thread). Don't you just unwind the QR lever a bit more to clear the lips?

They were introduced as a safety thing for the masses. My race bikes don't have them, so pop out the wheel pop in the new one and done - far faster than the 'tabs' and faster than through axel, but that was 30 years ago. Shimano and Campag QR's are still the best. Some of the cheap stuff can come undone. That's where the tabs come in. I have two bikes that I change tyres regular, and I know to do 8 or so half turns to get the QR loose enough to pop off, then spare wheel on and 8 half turns to get ready to tighten up. It's a little slower, but it's not a race bike, and these days, saves a law suit.

 

[Smokin Joe]

They are just unnecessary. It's a Yank thing, some bozo forgot to do his quick release up and instead of giving up cycling because he was too stupid to ride a bike he sued everyone in sight.

It's like forgetting to tighten the wheelnuts on your Fiesta and trying to sue Fords when the wheels fell off.

 

[Mazz]

They were introduced as a safety thing for the masses. My race bikes don't have them, so pop out the wheel pop in the new one and done - far faster than the 'tabs' and faster than through axel, but that was 30 years ago. Shimano and Campag QR's are still the best. Some of the cheap stuff can come undone. That's where the tabs come in. I have two bikes that I change tyres regular, and I know to do 8 or so half turns to get the QR loose enough to pop off, then spare wheel on and 8 half turns to get ready to tighten up. It's a little slower, but it's not a race bike, and these days, saves a law suit.

I was curious enough to take this photo of the front dropouts on my road bike. There's a little lip/tab on each dropout... to clear it when removing the wheel, no big deal, just unwind the QR lever, the tab only protrudes a couple of mm.🤷🏻‍♂️

 

[Fastpedaller]

The worry I have (and I've seen it a few times) is that some users don't understand the action of using the cam to tighten the QR. Seeing others rotate the parts reinforces their belief that they are using the QR correctly. This could lead to a lack of control, which could cause a crash—the very thing the 'lawyers lips' were trying to avoid.

 

[Smokin Joe]

The worry I have (and I've seen it a few times) is that some users don't understand the action of using the cam to tighten the QR. Seeing others rotate the parts reinforces their belief that they are using the QR correctly. This could lead to a lack of control, which could cause a crash—the very thing the 'lawyers lips' were trying to avoid.

That's what is known as operator fault.

 

[Mazz]

The worry I have (and I've seen it a few times) is that some users don't understand the action of using the cam to tighten the QR. Seeing others rotate the parts reinforces their belief that they are using the QR correctly. This could lead to a lack of control, which could cause a crash—the very thing the 'lawyers lips' were trying to avoid.

Interesting, thanks for the explanation.
It's worrying that some people can't use
a QR correctly, it's such a simple thing, even for me.

What I still don't understand is why when you had the puncture, it took a long time to get the wheel off with the QR ('slow release' as you referred to it).

 

[oldandslow]

It doesn't take very long. It just takes longer than it did when QRs were used in the way they were designed to operate, which is like they do on back wheels. You set the nut position once and it stays like that. To take a wheel out, you flip the lever and, if necessary, tap the wheel to knock it out of the frame. To put the wheel in, you've already got the nut position correct, so you just flip the lever to the closed position.

In racing, seconds matter. In other contexts, if you're used to doing it that way (and I am, because several of my bikes are too old for LLs and I pre-date them anyway), it's just an unnecessary nuisance to be constantly unscrewing and screwing up a nut that was intended by Tullio Campagnolo to stay put.

 

[presta]

Thing is, even without the LL, you'd still need a skewer otherwise there's nothing holding the wheel in place!

But where has anyone suggested leaving the skewer out?

it's just an unnecessary nuisance to be constantly unscrewing and screwing up a nut that was intended by Tullio Campagnolo to stay put

If it were just about undoing the nut and tightening it again it wouldn't be so irritating, but there's the faffing to get the tension on the skewer correct as well.

One of the most irritating things about working on bikes in general is that almost every fixing doubles up as an adjustment as well, so it's impossible to dismantle and reassemble anything without getting drawn in to the nuisance of having to reset the adjustment as well. One of the worst culprits is fixing the mudguard stays to the dropouts. They're not even supposed to be adjustments, but in practice there's enough clearance in the hole to move the mudguard laterally until it rubs on the tyre, and no matter how carefully you try to position it, the stay always gets moved out of place as the head of the screw tightens onto it.

 

[Smokin Joe]

If it were just about undoing the nut and tightening it again it wouldn't be so irritating, but there's the faffing to get the tension on the skewer correct as well.

Especially by the side of the road with cold, wet hands.

 

[andrew_s]

I would comment that lawyer lips aren't completely reliable, hence the use of thru axles on all relatively recent disc braked bikes.

If the QR isn't tight enough, the disc end of the axle can be forced downwards until the lawyer lips stop it. It then gets pushed back up by your weigh after you stop braking, or by the next pothole if your weight isn't enough.
Over time, the repeated up & down movement will cause the adjuster nut to gradually unscrew.
It will eventually get loose enough to pop out over the lawyer lip tabs, unless you notice or have the wheel out for a puncture etc and readjust it beforehand.

I have seen a couple of posts on here or the CTC forum from puzzled users asking why the top of their front wheel moved sideways when braking, with disc brakes and a not very tight QR was the answer.