Will the union court win over holiday pay really make any difference?

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cyberknight

cyberknight

As long as I breathe, I attack.
Personally i don't think its right to force employers to do this. If you refused to do overtime and your employer sacked you surely you would be able to take them to tribunal bcoz you are only contracted for, say, 40 hours per week. So how can you then say it works the other way? No one is obliged to do overtime bcoz by definition, it's time worked over and above your contracted hours ?? I've mostly worked in offices, so always been salaried, but I've also worked in a well known supermarket where overtime was offered but the company never had a right to make me work and couldn't sack me if I didn't. Surely that applies everywhere? Or am I wrong?

Unfortunately although you have a basic pay, my contract states that you work till your done whether it be zero or 3 hours which as stated only gets announced about 1 hour before official clocking off time .Best case scenario is planned production finish time ranging from zero to 1 hour overtime plus around half an hour on top to leave the job in a good condition for the next shift .Even with planned zero overtime last month i still did 25 hours over time .

AS I understand holiday pay entitlement (it's been a while since did payroll at college), statutory holiday pay is 5.6 weeks, up to a maximum of 28 days. A week of holiday pay is an average of the last 12 weeks wages (from the government's website, excluding non-guaranteed overtime). I think the union has argued that overtime should be included in the calculation of the 12-week average if you regularly work overtime. How this will work regarding back-dated pay, and like @cyberknight at Toymota, where overtime can vary, but you're contracted to do it if it's called, I don't know.
I have heard this 3 month figure banded about ,nothing definite.
 

mr_cellophane

Legendary Member
Location
Essex
If you get time off in lieu when you work overtime will you now get extra time off when you go on holiday ?
 

marinyork

Resting in suspended Animation
Location
Logopolis
I am a bit perplexed by this ruling, I always regarded overtime as voluntary ie if you were asked to work over you could always refuse, if there was no overtime available you couldn't ask to work.I presume this ruling is aimed at employers who expect people to work over and above their contracted hours and if the employee disagrees with this he is out ( which is wrong but pressure is applied for the employee to work the extra hours and if that doesn't work he is got rid of by other means)

There are three types of overtime in UK employment law. The first is voluntary. The second the employer is not provided to give, but which the worker is obliged to do. The third type is compulsory on both sides. It's in my law book, it's in the judgement, even the BBC thought the other morning that it was interesting that a judgement in 1973 had been overruled.

The arguments in this case confusingly enough discussed the differences between the second and third type.
 

marinyork

Resting in suspended Animation
Location
Logopolis
As the title says ,

I wonder how this will be applied and how they will calculate it, how will they convince employers to pay it and how far will they back date it ?Its of interest to me as we are expected to work fluctuating levels of overtime based on planned production targets, breakdowns etc with the actual amount you need to do not called every day untill just over 1 hour before normal home time .

Already started being settled. John Lewis/Waitrose already settled up last year (gone back six years) - some very large payouts. Various big companies such as Royal Mail have been approached. Unions like Unison, Unite and the CWU are already doing things. The less zombified unions like above and the GMB and a few others will put in claims and ask for immediate change or the next pay negotiations. They tell their members and claims but not an apocalyptically large number go in.

The more zombified unions like USDAW will do very little and say when it has gone to the court of appeal, could you please think about giving us what you're going to be forced to give us, that'd be awfully nice.

The reason there was great confusion about the time limits is the EU directive allows 3 months to claims whereas the 1996 Employment Rights Act allows it to be treated as a 'series' of claims and strung along if there are no breaks in the chain (allowing vastly bigger claims). This is because the House of Lords actually ruled that holiday pay was wages for the purpose of unlawful deduction of wages (hence the whole case).

If a company puts their house in order by either settling up or changing from now on this is theoretically limiting their losses. This is because the narrow Employment Tribunal window shuts off as the chain is broken. Despite the claim of the apocalypse most of the people affected will probably never claim. Some companies will simply keep quiet and not do anything at all until they are made to (maybe months or a couple of years from now) gambling (where they know about it) that they can have the smallest payout with no or few claims and changing over at a later date.

The reason why some companies are so worried is this much discussed theoretical maximum of sixteen years as companies may not have detailed payroll going back that far.

I'd say talk to a union rep, as it sounds on paper that you would have a claim, but as you are already a rep apparently, then talk to a trade union organiser or official at HQ/regional level or your union's legal line. There's going to be a few contrary people on here saying yeah don't believe anything you read on the internet talk to 'qualified' people only. That advise is half right. The case appeared on the EAT database on Tuesday afternoon. If you are aware of relevant arguments and your contract details before you chat it'll go a lot better.
 

theclaud

Openly Marxist
Location
Swansea
There are three types of overtime in UK employment law. The first is voluntary. The second the employer is not provided to give, but which the worker is obliged to do. The third type is compulsory on both sides. It's in my law book, it's in the judgement, even the BBC thought the other morning that it was interesting that a judgement in 1973 had been overruled.

The arguments in this case confusingly enough discussed the differences between the second and third type.

Hello! Where you been?
 

marinyork

Resting in suspended Animation
Location
Logopolis
Hello! Where you been?

Everywhere and nowhere. Lots of trips to A&E and hospital (parents), looking after parents, studying, learning Italian, job hunting in Italy, limited cycling in Italy, not finding jobs in Italy. Erm yeah what else have I done the last couple of years? No cycle campaigning. A couple of trips down south but I didn't bump into Rich P, merely passing by. I was reading with great interest Dellzeqq's grand trip of 2015. Sort of funny I'm more mobile now but still haven't been on a ride since 2011. I'd like to say I'd been away and spent more time with my maths books and bikes hoarded in a cave protecting the best cheeses of the world in the event of apocalypse, but it's not really true. I suppose you could say 2013 wasn't a great year. This place forever seemed to be getting rid of and re-introducing the chatroom and I had lost some interest in the forums. And while I was gone January/February I think it was when I last logged in, the chatroom went.

edit: went to see the tdf of course. Didn't get on tv thankfully as the motorbike cameraman thought a zoomed in shot of Roland's arse was more interesting than loiterers in Shirecliffe.
 
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cyberknight

cyberknight

As long as I breathe, I attack.
I'd say talk to a union rep, as it sounds on paper that you would have a claim, but as you are already a rep apparently, then talk to a trade union organiser or official at HQ/regional level or your union's legal line. There's going to be a few contrary people on here saying yeah don't believe anything you read on the internet talk to 'qualified' people only. That advise is half right. The case appeared on the EAT database on Tuesday afternoon. If you are aware of relevant arguments and your contract details before you chat it'll go a lot better.
Im a learner rep, i dont really have anything to do with the other stuff, spoke to a union rep but until things are settled one way or another i had best not muddy the waters on social media/ forums any further.
 

marinyork

Resting in suspended Animation
Location
Logopolis
Im a learner rep, i dont really have anything to do with the other stuff, spoke to a union rep but until things are settled one way or another i had best not muddy the waters on social media/ forums any further.

Well best of luck. I wouldn't expect you to discuss your case on here, however, I have given my views on some of the questions here - if people don't like them, I'm not really bothered, I tried to post where possible helpful and views not aired. All the stuff I posted is available in the public domain. I think it will make a small difference to quite a few people. I could post my views on the case, but I think it's better people work through the materials themselves - they are perfectly able to do this if they have the patience.

Discounting back claims, the idea that this in itself is going to break the proverbial camel's and lead to a massive change towards shorter hours is fanciful - there are many other reasons such as having to not pay for breaks, NEST, NI etc. It's a trend that's gone on for a long time.
 
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cyberknight

cyberknight

As long as I breathe, I attack.
Seems like its going through , back pay is another matter but as someone said to me it is liable to affect pay rise negotiations as it will all come out of that pot .
 

PK99

Legendary Member
Location
SW19
Seems like its going through , back pay is another matter but as someone said to me it is liable to affect pay rise negotiations as it will all come out of that pot .

Very true - there is not a bottomless money pit for wages - the overall wage bill has to be affordable, lower rises &/or reduction in headcount are the likely outcome in some firms.
 
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