Will we ever have a system that comes close to the dutch system here in the UK?

[totallyfixed]

I posted something similar on here about three years ago, good to be reminded again. It doesn't matter over there whether cyclists are segregated or not because the bottom line is that virtually everyone owns / rides a bike. I don't know how the helmet evangelists can continue with their dogma that helmets save lives, I suppose the hospitals must be overflowing with head injuries in the Netherlands and Denmark

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[Kies]

Interesting video and discussion, the first thing that springs to my mind about trips to the Netherlands is how flat it is.

I hope to live in an era of friendlier car drivers, but I think the growing cost of motoring in this country is our only hope of an improved cycling environment. Maybe more should be invested in public transport to help people get out of cars more.....I certainly wouldnt trust our current public transport system for my daily commute

This is probably the only way our leaders will take note. They are unwilling to tackle rising fuel costs, and so people are using their cars less and less. The numbers of riders in fair weather (london) , shows thatbpeople want a viable alternative. The politicains see it as a vote winner

 

[bicyclos]

There are over 31 million ( 2012 figures ) cars on the road all supping over taxed fuel week in week out. Do you think any government would give up the revenue from this hike and encourage people onto a more healthy lifestye. They certainly creamed the tobacco tax.....Majority of people in this country are dependent on the car and would not do without it. Even though the fuel prices have gone up at a silly rate it has not reduced the traffic jams and got people into alternative modes of transport to make any difference. We do have a feeble reminder of painted lines and a few tarmac diversions that resemble a cycle infrastructure. I think you could call that Dutch courage because you need it in this country and you aint getting anything else.

 

[aoj]

Adrian summed it up in another post , far more eloquently than i could.
I just want to be able to ride on a road without drivers treating me like s***e. I dont really want segregated space as it gives a "them and us" perception both ways.

Certainly in this country there is going to be a "them and us" while cyclists are in the minority, we need more car users to become cyclists on the roads.
The drivers in the Netherlands are also the cyclists. On roads I cycled in the Netherlands where there was no segregation you did not feel threatened, even buses would would wait behind before pulling over to the opposite side of the road to pass you. On speaking to some of the locals I was led believe the cyclists have the priority over the cars by law and that if a young cyclist is involved in an accident with a car, the driver is automatically at fault. It is as good as you are going to get over there.
Like the Netherlands we need the political will to change the laws to further protect cyclist on the roads like they did, even though we supposedly have laws already to protect cyclists. The problem is it took 50 years to get where they are today!

 

[subaqua]

If you don't start then you can never get anywhere

 

[GrumpyGregry]

There are over 31 million ( 2012 figures ) cars on the road all supping over taxed fuel week in week out. Do you think any government would give up the revenue from this hike and encourage people onto a more healthy lifestye. They certainly creamed the tobacco tax.....Majority of people in this country are dependent on the car and would not do without it. Even though the fuel prices have gone up at a silly rate it has not reduced the traffic jams and got people into alternative modes of transport to make any difference. We do have a feeble reminder of painted lines and a few tarmac diversions that resemble a cycle infrastructure. I think you could call that Dutch courage because you need it in this country and you aint getting anything else.

At what price per litre would the majority of people decide to wean themselves off their complete dependency on the car, and begin to consider life without one? I'm an ex-petrol addict myself btw. Having established what said price level is how do we get the govt. to raise taxes so we hit that price asap and bring about the change? If govt won't do that how soon will supply and demand do it for us?

I've recently been offered a job a three hour commute (by car) away. Should I insist the state provides me with infrastructure like a time machine so I can choose to take up the offer? The car enables lifestyle choices to be made, people simply need to make different choices.

 

[bicyclos]

The car enables lifestyle choices to be made, people simply need to make different choices.

I will agree with that point and cars have got their uses and to be honest I would not do without mine and I am not insisting get rid of your car and cycle or walk. We are stung to the hilt for the crap facilities we have and as a tax paying cyclist its even poorer. I cannot see in my lifetime anything slightly close to a Dutch system in the UK by a long chalk as we are two totaly different cultures to begin with especially driving mentality....

 

[GrumpyGregry]

I will agree with that point and cars have got their uses and to be honest I would not do without mine and I am not insisting get rid of your car and cycle or walk. We are stung to the hilt for the crap facilities we have and as a tax paying cyclist its even poorer. I cannot see in my lifetime anything slightly close to a Dutch system in the UK by a long chalk as we are two totaly different cultures to begin with especially driving mentality....

But the question is, what can be done to get people out of their cars on into/onto alternative modes?

I take the view that if we got the volumes and speed of traffic down, and increasing tax on fuel is one method, then we would not, in the main, need cycle infrastructure. Because we already have it; roads.

Most cyclists also drive. Let's start by challenging the myth of "But I need a car, I have no choice" with those already on two wheels some of the time by exposing it for what it is, shorthand for "But I need a car because of the choices I've made." We do this by challenging those choices that create the sense of need.

 

[Pat "5mph"]

Here are the observations of a dutch cyclist on a recent visit to London.

 

[sheddy]

50 min interview with David Hembrow on Resonance FM http://thebikeshow.net/
Scroll down halfway for ' What It Really Means to Go Dutch'

 

[captain nemo1701]

I live in hope too, but here's my reasons why not:
1. General laziness and apathy. We now have an entire generation of kids who have grown up under the Thatcherite 'cars are good,make you free, public transport is bad and run by communists' philosophy.We copied the US (sorry to US forum readers!)in terms of transport policy ie. cars are the future.
2. Glossy expensive surreal car ads that make most 17 year olds want to buy a car five minutes after they turn 17. People are wealthier nowadays, some even buy cars for their offspring!
3. Crap cycling infrastructure. Ok, some bits are good (Bristol Railway Path..yaay!), but we're light-years away from the Netherlands .
4. Cars rule. Towns and cities are designed for them with little thought of anything else.
5. Anti-cycling right wing Tory press. Bristol is a cycling city but we are cursed with the Bristol Post, a chip off the old Daily Mail block - the DM once tailed CTC president Jon Snow through London trying to catch him RLJ'ing etc.
6. No money. Funny how we can't afford cycling infrastructure and have to scrounge/beg for every penny but can afford illegal oil wars in Iraq. Boy, would I like to be left with Tory Blair in a room for five minutes

Some of you might disagree, but these are my thoughts......

 

[theclaud]

50 min interview with David Hembrow

Where's the Pearl-Handled Derringer Smiley?

 

[Genau]

I live in hope too, but here's my reasons why not:
1. General laziness and apathy. We now have an entire generation of kids who have grown up under the Thatcherite 'cars are good,make you free, public transport is bad and run by communists' philosophy.We copied the US (sorry to US forum readers!)in terms of transport policy ie. cars are the future.
2. Glossy expensive surreal car ads that make most 17 year olds want to buy a car five minutes after they turn 17. People are wealthier nowadays, some even buy cars for their offspring!
3. Crap cycling infrastructure. Ok, some bits are good (Bristol Railway Path..yaay!), but we're light-years away from the Netherlands .
4. Cars rule. Towns and cities are designed for them with little thought of anything else.
5. Anti-cycling right wing Tory press. Bristol is a cycling city but we are cursed with the Bristol Post, a chip off the old Daily Mail block - the DM once tailed CTC president Jon Snow through London trying to catch him RLJ'ing etc.
6. No money. Funny how we can't afford cycling infrastructure and have to scrounge/beg for every penny but can afford illegal oil wars in Iraq. Boy, would I like to be left with Tory Blair in a room for five minutes

Some of you might disagree, but these are my thoughts......

It was actually Barbara Castle during her time in government who issued the policy encouraging local authorities to rebuild their urban centres in favour of car use. It was also Barbara Castle who implemented the Beeching cuts.

If you were not told who Barbara Castle was in "Thatch wuz evil" classes then Google will reveal that she was actually a Labour MP and minister.

Revisionist history is one thing but ignoring simple facts and moving the beginning of car culture from the 1950s to the 1980s is quite another.

 

[Mad Doug Biker]

You could build the best network of cyclepaths in history, and yet, serious cyclists in this country would still cycle on the road.
I genuinely cringe when I see groups of cyclist out on, say, the A82 at certain points where I know fine well there is a perfectly good surfaced path to be had not too far away, sometimes even in clear sight! In fact, I saw a group of the clowns out the other day, riding 2 or 3 abreast, idly chatting to each other on what is a motorway in all but name, and with a huge amount of traffic behind waiting to get past on the one remaining lane.
Idiots, complete and utter idiots who give us ALL a bad name!

People in this country seem to have a real deathwish, and it is fast getting to the stage now where if you are going to be a silly bugger and get hit by a car when there was no need for you to be where you were in the first place, then you will get little or no sympathy from me.

 

[tyred]

I've got some tulips in the garden and I own a Batavus....well it's a start.