Would anyone be interested in a 1970's Alan shorter TT bike?

[Pink Nigel Dean]

A very nice bike but, like you, I've never seen a lugless Shorter. Maybe they were 'specials' made just for Alf Engers? He tried to save weight wherever he could, so maybe the lugs had to go. (If so this COULD actually be one of Alf's bikes I suppose if the size is right).

Top of the seat stays doesn't look very Shorterish though.

No, but if you read my first posts you'll see that I suspect the person who sold it to me swapped most of the bits over, so the seat stays most probably aren't original.

As to size, it is the same wheelbase as Alf's bike, 36.75"

 

[Pink Nigel Dean]

@Pink Nigel Dean - reading through all the "it's not like any Shorter frame I know" type comments, are you sure it's a Shorter and not something else re-sprayed?

Bob Jackson respray frames and then put their logos on, but they're not 'Bob Jackson's. Could yours be similar and you really need the frame number to ID it properly?

It was decaled as a Shorter in exactly the same style as all the others I've seen. There's no doubt at all it's a top quality frame, but if someone had tried to pass it off as something it wasn't then surely they would have chosen a rather more prestigious make than a Shorter?

Comparing it to some of the other Shorter frames I've seen it's as though someone resprayed a Lamborghini to pass it off as an MG, which makes little sense.

I agree, it's a mystery, shame I didn't take any photos before I stripped it.

 

[midlife]

Barry Chick made Shorter frames for Alf. Columbus pista tubes, welded to save weight I think so not fillet brazed. BITD having Shorter on your frame had more kudos than say Harry Quinn lol

 

[Pink Nigel Dean]

Biggs682 kindly pointed me towards this thread, which features a number of Shorters;

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/shorter-rochford.218906/

DCLane previously stressed the importance of the serial number in order to ID the bike properly, and since some of the Shorters on the thread had theirs stamped on the fork tube inside the frame head, I dismantled my headseat and found this;

Not sure how it helps, but any suggestions are welcome..

 

[biggs682]

Well my gold one is 3277 and was paid for in the mid 70's . I doubt your numbers last two digits are the year of build .

No further forward really

 

[Pink Nigel Dean]

You have to be right there, I may not remember the exact year I bought it, but I haven't yet reached the point where I get the decade wrong

There was a chap on the thread you showed me who was making a bit of a study of Shorter serial numbers, and he said that there were at least 3 numbering systems in use at Shorter, though he didn't provide any details. He hasn't posted on here since last year, but I've sent a PM to see if he's still around. The few examples he provides show that some of the numbers used were not connected to dates.

 

[biggs682]

You have to be right there, I may not remember the exact year I bought it, but I haven't yet reached the point where I get the decade wrong

There was a chap on the thread you showed me who was making a bit of a study of Shorter serial numbers, and he said that there were at least 3 numbering systems in use at Shorter, though he didn't provide any details. He hasn't posted on here since last year, but I've sent a PM to see if he's still around. The few examples he provides show that some of the numbers used were not connected to dates.

From memory pretty sure mine was built in 1973 so you could say first digit is year but what decade ? The other numbers could be it's number built in that year but would they have built 277+ bikes in a year in my case ?

 

[Pink Nigel Dean]

Barry Chick made Shorter frames for Alf. Columbus pista tubes, welded to save weight I think so not fillet brazed. BITD having Shorter on your frame had more kudos than say Harry Quinn lol

Yes, that's what I read about Alf's frame here;

https://pezcyclingnews.com/interviews/time-trial-king-alf-engers-part-2-rider-interview/

But if you look at the site below, and scroll down, you'll find a picture of Alan Rochford holding what is purported to be Alf's record breaking bike frame.

https://www.veloveritas.co.uk/2010/12/01/alf-engers-part-ii-the-record-or-i-can-go-fast-if-its-easy/

If you zoom in it looks more like fillet brazing than TIG welding, which I would expect to show fairly abrupt joints between tubes, like the example on post 34 on this thread, rather than the more contoured joints seen here, which look more like my frame.

And below, if you scroll down, is a Shorter built by Barry Chick in the 80's from Columbus tubes, and again the brazing presents the same appearance.

https://www.lfgss.com/comments/9074781/

A later bike than my own, but it has the same unusual fork head as mine, which I've not seen elsewhere, and curiously whilst the top frame joints are fillet brazed the bottom bracket is lugged.

So it seems I've finally laid the, 'my frame doesn't look like any other Shorter I've ever seen' ghost to rest. Looks like Barry Chick probably built my frame too, which goes some way to explaining the exquisite detail, from what I've heard about his reputation. I still haven't found another identical to mine, but at least now I have a better idea of what to look for.

And here's another later Chick frame, same brazing as mine and the same unusual shape to the top of the seat tube;


View: https://www.flickr.com/photos/brigand_doom/4551772854/in/photostream/


I also got in touch with the chap who was studying Shorter serial numbers, who told me that unfortunately the early records no longer exist.

 

[lb140]

A couple of pics of the Carhall. On reflection the Reynolds sticker looks too new and it looks like TIG rather than filler brazed

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Hi,
Sorry to resurrect an old thread but I came across this while trying to find some decals for my grandfather’s Carhall I’m having restored at the minute.
I wondered if you might be able to share some closer pictures of your Carhall decals that I may be able to use to have some decals made? The originals on mine don’t have a huge amount left.
Thanks in advance!

 

[midlife]

Hi

I'll have a stab at taking some pics of the decals, the frame is at the back of the shed so might be next weekend. Is that OK ?

 

[lb140]

Hi

I'll have a stab at taking some pics of the decals, the frame is at the back of the shed so might be next weekend. Is that OK ?

Absolutely, would be much appreciated! Great to see there are still a few of these frames knocking around
Cheers, L

 

[midlife]

I'll have a go. Can you please PM to remind me and also where you would like me to send you the pics.

 

[midlife]

Absolutely, would be much appreciated! Great to see there are still a few of these frames knocking around
Cheers, L

Not forgotten, had a look for the Carhall today when I took out the lawnmower. Its hidden behind some furniture but will try and rescue it tomorrow to take pics of the decals.

 

[biggs682]

Not forgotten, had a look for the Carhall today when I took out the lawnmower. Its hidden behind some furniture but will try and rescue it tomorrow to take pics of the decals.

I wonder how many other bikes are / frames are hidden in the same way ?

I know of a rather tasty Claud Butler that is

 

[lb140]

Not forgotten, had a look for the Carhall today when I took out the lawnmower. Its hidden behind some furniture but will try and rescue it tomorrow to take pics of the decals.

That's great thanks, I don't seem to be able to send a PM on here (new account perhaps?) so if you'd be able to post the pics up on here that would be ace. Cheers