Would you class a 40% drop in cycling collisions as a good result ?

[very-near]

No I didn't. And I was hoping you would quote it.

Pay attention now-



Your source acknowledges that 4 months isn't long enough yet to provide reputable data.

It's long enough for you to claim that motorbikes in bus lanes makes cycling in bus lanes safer, but not long enough to point out that the trial has seen an increase in motorbike collisions.

Hopefully you'll see that you can't even take information like this at face value at this stage.

Let's just wait until the end of the trial shall we? I'm not wishing any outcome and will welcome the final report, whatever it says.

Can I quote you on that ?

 

[CopperBrompton]

Can the results of even high quality trials ever be said to be free from the influence of the perceptions and agenda of those that commission, execute, analyse or report on those data?

attempting to formulate their application from a statistical analysis while discounting any psychological factors would be like jellying a wall to a nail.[/QUOTE]
No-one is suggesting discounting psychological factors, rather that they be specifically addressed by education and publicity.

 

[very-near]

Contrary to the title, motorcyclists are not cyclists with a motor, they are car drivers with only two wheels. The only things we have in common are all the things that people might have in common. That and the fact that motorists in cars tend to pull out in front of us. This is not sufficient grounds to form an alliance. Our interests do not overlap here.

I am a cyclist, motorcyclist and car driver. I see it from all viewpoints and that is how I can make a comparison. From this statement, you obviously only drive and cycle as you seem to be incapable of seeing the 3rd viewpoint.
The difference between cyclists and motorcyclists is that as soon as the traffic starts to flow freely, every vehicle on the road will attempt to pass a cycle (or moped), but will only do so with a motorcycle if they are intent on breaking the speed limits


Neither bus nor cab drivers pass me in bus lanes at 40mph, there is just not room for it. Motorcyclists do have room and do pass me at that sort of speed. What they don't have is sufficient room to do it and for me always to feel comfortable with it. I don't think that people behave like that to intimidate or to threaten, they just do it because they are riding a motorbike and on their way somewhere.

What you actually mean is that you bring their speed down to 12-15mph and keep them there even if there is nothing else in front of you, as they don't want to risk having you off to get past you
A Motorcycle on the other hand will see a cyclist on an otherwise empty stretch of road and will look to get past because there is no earthly reason why you should dictate their speed to them if it does not put you at risk because you chose a mode of transport which cannot attain and maintain this limit where safe to do so.


If there is a gap between a stationary bus and some other vehicle that I can't fit through, the only person I could possible hold up by blocking it is Benborp. That I might block it up is purely your supposition.

As for my impatience, I do not ask motorcyclist to get out of my way, but I don't like it when they unthinkingly get in my way.

I expect you would do what many cyclists do and ride on the pavement when the road is blocked by a stationary vehicle.

 

[very-near]

Linfy

Proper bikes are allowed in bus lanes for a reason. And as such, they're allowed to take their place in the flow of traffic. If this means slowing a bus down to protect themselves, then so be it.

What would that be ? - because cyclists are vulnerable road users and deserve a bit of protection to help reduce accidents

Many of us commuting cyclists however are quite able to match the speed of buses in bus lanes. In fact, it's usually the bus slowing me down at stops. Does this mean that buses shouldn't be allowed to use bus lanes? Of course not.

They are called 'Bus lanes' for a reason, not 'cycle lanes' or 'motorcycle lanes' or 'taxi lanes'

I've been buzzed enough by motorcyclists in bus lanes while they're still banned from being there. Increasing this risk to less confident cyclists (which we should be encouraging as, as Dell has said, public transport and proper bikes are the future for city travelling) is a negative to allowing motorbikes into bus lanes.

The preliminary findings after 16 weeks are that motorcycles don't increase the risk to cyclists whilst in these lanes. The LCC were unable to quote any accidents between cycles and motorcycles in Bus lanes after 40 weeks of trials so that is an indicator that the perceived threat does not actually bear a relation to the actual threat.

The bottom line is Motorcycles are being allowed into these lanes to reduce risk to them as they are by far the most vulnerable users on the road (above cyclists). You being a 'road safety campaigner' should really be welcoming any measure which makes the roads safer and not just ones which fit your small world view.

 

[thomas]

Contrary to the title, motorcyclists are not cyclists with a motor, they are car drivers with only two wheels. The only things we have in common are all the things that people might have in common. That and the fact that motorists in cars tend to pull out in front of us. This is not sufficient grounds to form an alliance. Our interests do not overlap here.

I am for motorcyclists in bus lanes, in principle. Motorcyclists do in general face some similar problems to cyclists, though I think that cyclists do suffer more problems. I think that as motorcyclists can keep up with the speed of traffic easier they can avoid incidents, like some close overtakes which can be very scary!! (for instance, my commute if traffic was free-flowing then it would be doing between 30-60mph, I obviously cannot keep these speeds up, so people have to overtake me. Some get impatient and squeeze past...if I was on a motorbike, I would be more likely to be doing the same speed as traffic in these situations).

All we need really is for everyone to have a little bit more time for everyone else.

 

[very-near]

When they are prepared to play nicely I will reconsider my position.

Your attitude betrays your depth of ignorance towards motorcyclists.

It demonstrates that you always consider yourself to be in the right. I hope I don't come across you when you are behind the wheel

 

[dellzeqq]

Thomas - the thing is that this isn't in any way general. It's particular.

Let me confess - when the idea was first mooted I was in favour. I like motorcyclists as a breed (despite their malodorousness, and their distinct lack of interest in couture), and, as I've said, I do use them as a training device. But - time and experience proved me wrong. The motorcyclists took to bus lanes like bats out of hell. They whizzed through the throngs of cyclists without a care in the world. It takes a fair bit to alarm stout fellows like AdrianC and yrs truly, but they did - and they terrified the less experienced - the love of my life included. In other words - they blew it.

I think cyclists have got to get over the shy and retiring bit. In a world running out of oil, and government expenditure on transport under the cosh, we are the dreamboats of mobility - the chosen ones, the shining lights of the world, God's anointed, the Salvation of Streets, the Ones Who Must Be Propitiated.........civilisation needs us to ride bikes, and we're due a whole shedload more consideration than we're getting at the moment. By contrast nobody actually needs motorcyclists. Which is tough, but, hey, that's the way it goes.........

 

[thomas]

When they are prepared to play nicely I will reconsider my position.

Hmm. Well be overly aggressive then. I am not saying that I am always calm and patient, but if everyone was less worried about shaving a few seconds off we'd probably all get there a lot safer and no slower.

Thomas - the thing is that this isn't in any way general. It's particular.

Let me confess - when the idea was first mooted I was in favour. I like motorcyclists as a breed (despite their malodorousness, and their distinct lack of interest in couture), and, as I've said, I do use them as a training device. But - time and experience proved me wrong.

I can't comment for London as I don't really have any experience of it other than the odd critical mass and getting lost riding back to the station . Actually, that night motorcyclists were a God send as they all tried to give directions for us to get back to the station.

Around where I live, there are obviously less cyclists than in London and less motorcyclists. The bus lanes around here are predominantly empty and I think it makes sense for motorcyclists to be able to benefit from them like I do on the bike.

Even in London, I like the idea in principle, but if some motorcyclists (as you say) take the piss and don't ride appropriately then unfortunately they should all loose out.

 

[StuartG]

I am strongly in favour of motorcyclists using bus lanes. I would challenge anyone here to ride along a certain 4 lane road (two of which are 24/7 bus lanes) on a motor cycle at night at a legal speed. You would be terrified. I only do it by speeding so no car will bushwack me.

I concur with Dal et al that allowing my M/B in the bus lane will cause inconvenience, even nuisance to cyclists (I am one too). Personally I prefer a whiff of burnt rubber to a well exercised Helly Hansen baselayer - but the issue is surely inconvenience/nuisance secondary to death?

So lets wait for the figures - if at the conclusion there is a significant improvement in casulties overall then give way gracefully. If it doesn't then we should revert.

I agree that pedal cycles should be preferable to motor cycles but if you live on the side of a 200ft hill, are of a certain age and need to carry a bit of a load then things even up a bit. They are certainly preferable to 4 wheels in London.

 

[stowie]

In theory, allowing motorcyclists access to the bus lanes is a good idea. They are vulnerable road users as well. But the problem is in the practise. Being on a bicycle with motorbikes going past significantly above the speed limit is at the very least intimidating, if not dangerous. Buses and Taxis are driven by professional people, and on the whole they act responsibly around cyclists in bus lanes. As far as I am aware, if you have a license before 2001 you need no further training to ride a moped.

I think that, if motorbikes are to be allowed in bus lanes, then there needs to be severe fines for speeding in these lanes - I would prefer the speed limited to 20mph.

Cyclists have next to bog-all infrastructure, if we are to encourage cycling, then we need to make the road less intimidating for cyclists, not more. So, my suggestion would be to get the meagre cycling provision we have to be enforced (especially ASLs) before allowing other vehicles into space cyclists use.

 

[very-near]

Thomas - the thing is that this isn't in any way general. It's particular.

Let me confess - when the idea was first mooted I was in favour. I like motorcyclists as a breed (despite their malodorousness, and their distinct lack of interest in couture), and, as I've said, I do use them as a training device. But - time and experience proved me wrong. The motorcyclists took to bus lanes like bats out of hell. They whizzed through the throngs of cyclists without a care in the world. It takes a fair bit to alarm stout fellows like AdrianC and yrs truly, but they did - and they terrified the less experienced - the love of my life included. In other words - they blew it.

I think cyclists have got to get over the shy and retiring bit. In a world running out of oil, and government expenditure on transport under the cosh, we are the dreamboats of mobility - the chosen ones, the shining lights of the world, God's anointed, the Salvation of Streets, the Ones Who Must Be Propitiated.........civilisation needs us to ride bikes, and we're due a whole shedload more consideration than we're getting at the moment. By contrast nobody actually needs motorcyclists. Which is tough, but, hey, that's the way it goes.........

Is that another way of saying that you and he are used to throwing your weight around to get your own way, but can't handle it if others do the same ?

The problem is that you only remember the badly behaved ones. Those who have ridden by the book don't even register on your radar. There are many good motorcycle riders out there, and I don't appreciate the notion that I should be judged by the actions of a few bad ones.

If you have come across a couple of knobs who have not shown consideration, then penalise them, but don't pidgeon hole the entire group for the actions of the few idiots you have had bad experiences with.

 

[Origamist]

Given that cycling numbers in London have very likley increased in 2009 perhaps the decrease could also be attributable to the Safety in Numbers effect...

 

[spen666]

there is far more to the concerns of LCC than simply the number of accidents. Having motorbikes whizzing past cyclists closer & at a higher speed than other traffic causes fear & concern for cyclists and puts off nervous cyclists from using the bus lanes.

The OP has managed to ignore we are talking about a statistically insignificant number of accidents to draw any conclusions. 3 or 5 accidents is statistically insignificant

Also the OP is ignoring the concerns of other road users and trying to base an argument on statistics alone. This ignore the fact that people have feelings & concerns

 

[Origamist]

What I find "interesting" is the Mayor's double-standards. When asked why he wanted to get rid of bendy buses one of the mayor's responses was:

The perception of safety is an important element in whether people decide to cycle or not. The bottom line is bendy buses contribute to the perception that cycling is unsafe, and it is my intention to correct this perception in order to get more people cycling.

However, it is hard to see how allowing PTWs in bus lanes is going to contribute to the perception that cycling is a safe activity. I seriously doubt this move will encourage more people to cycle.

 

[dellzeqq]

Spen - I missed your 666th post! Or was it not intended for mortal eyes?