YOSE power rear wheel kit

[Georgezx9]

Just fitted to my MTB, a few hiccups during installation, but works and is neat and tidy. However:
I am confused about a few things, the setting setup, what do each of the settings items actually do, and typically what is best. Tried asking YOSE UK, sadly useless, always answers my question with another question.
It has 5 PAS levels, on 1 you feel it kick in, but when I get to about 6 MPH I lose the effort, feels its me doing all the work, PAS2 is similar, Levels 4 and 5 are good up to higher speeds. Is this normal does each PAS level be effective at certain speed ranges.
Last week I did about 14 miles, some at L1 and the rest at L5, say L3 on average, my battery only had two bars left, that suggests at L3 I should get 20 miles range, is this correct, online reviews are suggesting about 35 miles at L3.
Interesting comparing this to my Wifes SWYTCH battery, the new higher power one 2 months old at L1 did the whole 14 miles but ran out of power at 10 miles, that also cannot be right.

Any advice to a newbie, gratefully achieved.

George

 

[bonzobanana]

That sounds like a basic controller that limits assistance by speed only so you get stepped speeds up to 15.5mph where it cuts out. So effectively you get 100% motor power up to lets say 8mph, then 12mph, then 15.5mph (if it was 3 assistance levels). This is common on cheaper hub motor ebikes. Other ebikes with more sophisticated controllers would vary the voltage/current into the motor which each assistance level so the motor only gives 30% power at setting one all the way up to 15.5mph but setting 2 would be 50% power etc.

If it came with a throttle you can fit it because of the department for transport allowance for ebike kits;

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/dft-pedal-cycles-converted-twist-go-exempt-type-approval/

This is much safer as it gives you full control of when to apply power and the level of power you need so you can either extend or decrease your range depending on how much you use it. It's how most ebikes in the world are controlled giving full control to the rider.

I personally think cadence sensors with 100% power can be dangerous, they can stop and start a bit randomly and providing 100% power is not great anyway if you are in busy congested traffic, you may not need anything like that for minor hills and 100% means the maximum discharge rate which may impact the lifespan of the battery pack.

Many of these ebike controllers were designed for throttle control and its just when they get shipped to Europe they end up using this basic rudimentary cadence sensor assistance for legal reasons but we have an exception to that in the UK with the type approval process under the 250W LPM sub category and even better you don't have to go through the type approval process if its a ebike kit.

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

That would seem to allow for a non throttle ebike, that has been used on the road, to have a throttle added at a later date???

Of course, some systems - probably including my Bosch :-( - will not allow it - but it would be interesting if the law does allow it.

 

[classic33]

That sounds like a basic controller that limits assistance by speed only so you get stepped speeds up to 15.5mph where it cuts out. So effectively you get 100% motor power up to lets say 8mph, then 12mph, then 15.5mph (if it was 3 assistance levels). This is common on cheaper hub motor ebikes. Other ebikes with more sophisticated controllers would vary the voltage/current into the motor which each assistance level so the motor only gives 30% power at setting one all the way up to 15.5mph but setting 2 would be 50% power etc.

If it came with a throttle you can fit it because of the department for transport allowance for ebike kits;

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/dft-pedal-cycles-converted-twist-go-exempt-type-approval/

This is much safer as it gives you full control of when to apply power and the level of power you need so you can either extend or decrease your range depending on how much you use it. It's how most ebikes in the world are controlled giving full control to the rider.

I personally think cadence sensors with 100% power can be dangerous, they can stop and start a bit randomly and providing 100% power is not great anyway if you are in busy congested traffic, you may not need anything like that for minor hills and 100% means the maximum discharge rate which may impact the lifespan of the battery pack.

Many of these ebike controllers were designed for throttle control and its just when they get shipped to Europe they end up using this basic rudimentary cadence sensor assistance for legal reasons but we have an exception to that in the UK with the type approval process under the 250W LPM sub category and even better you don't have to go through the type approval process if its a ebike kit.

From the Department for transport
"An EAPC can be fitted with a throttle (often referred to as ‘twist and go’ EAPCs) and can still be classed as an EAPC within the law in Great Britain, if it has approval to retained EU Regulations 168/2013 or the Motorcycle Single Vehicle Approval scheme (further information on the scheme can be found online: https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-approval/motorcycle-single-vehicleapproval). It is the responsibility of the manufacture to obtain approval before placing it on to the market."

Note the piece highlighted.

And from a piece linked to by yourself
"L1e-A powered cycle type approval

On the subject of type approval alignment with the EU, BAGB states: “The MSVA is due to be revised/replaced to fall into line with the EU rules deriving from Regulation 168/2013. We are told that the DfT are prioritising updating the UK’s type approval regulations for larger vehicles (cars etc.).. but once these are in place, the MSVA test is in line to be revised, likely sometime in 2017. The outcome should be a test which reflects the 168/2013 categories and its requirements; most electric bicycles will fall into L1e-A (powered cycles), which covers cycles with motors rated up to 1 kW, but still with a 25 km/h max assist speed.” "

 

[bonzobanana]

From the Department for transport
"An EAPC can be fitted with a throttle (often referred to as ‘twist and go’ EAPCs) and can still be classed as an EAPC within the law in Great Britain, if it has approval to retained EU Regulations 168/2013 or the Motorcycle Single Vehicle Approval scheme (further information on the scheme can be found online: https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-approval/motorcycle-single-vehicleapproval). It is the responsibility of the manufacture to obtain approval before placing it on to the market."

Note the piece highlighted.

And from a piece linked to by yourself
"L1e-A powered cycle type approval

On the subject of type approval alignment with the EU, BAGB states: “The MSVA is due to be revised/replaced to fall into line with the EU rules deriving from Regulation 168/2013. We are told that the DfT are prioritising updating the UK’s type approval regulations for larger vehicles (cars etc.).. but once these are in place, the MSVA test is in line to be revised, likely sometime in 2017. The outcome should be a test which reflects the 168/2013 categories and its requirements; most electric bicycles will fall into L1e-A (powered cycles), which covers cycles with motors rated up to 1 kW, but still with a 25 km/h max assist speed.” "

Obviously I'm referring to the 250W LPM sub class which is what Wisper sell their twist and go ebikes under and which there is an exception by the department for transport for diy ebike kits to use throttles. This sub class came in, in 2019 I think looking at the Pedelec thread where this was announced. The point is as this is an ebike kit and looks to be fairly low powered it should be fine as a ebike in the same 'type approval' catagory as 250W LPM.

 

[classic33]

Obviously I'm referring to the 250W LPM sub class which is what Wisper sell their twist and go ebikes under and which there is an exception by the department for transport for diy ebike kits to use throttles. This sub class came in, in 2019 I think looking at the Pedelec thread where this was announced. The point is as this is an ebike kit and looks to be fairly low powered it should be fine as a ebike in the same 'type approval' catagory as 250W LPM.

Given that the second piece, added in the edit, is from Wisper Bikes, who put their bikes through single vehicle type approval to allow them to fit the throttle at a cost of £55 for the test and £199 for themselves. You have to ask yourself is it actually worth it to have it type approved?
You want a bike in the same class a type approved bike, you've to shell out to get it there. You cannot just say "it's the same as that one over there!"

That's the basic idea behind the Motorcycle Single Vehicle Approval test, it applies to one vehicle only.

 

[bonzobanana]

Given that the second piece, added in the edit, is from Wisper Bikes, who put their bikes through single vehicle type approval to allow them to fit the throttle at a cost of £55 for the test and £199 for themselves. You have to ask yourself is it actually worth it to have it type approved?
You want a bike in the same class a type approved bike, you've to shell out to get it there. You cannot just say "it's the same as that one over there!"

That's the basic idea behind the Motorcycle Single Vehicle Approval test, it applies to one vehicle only.

They have clearly stated an exception for DIY kits;

The full response from the DfT reads:

“In response to your email about converting a normal pedal cycle which has first been used on the public road as a pedal cycle, I am pleased to report that type approval does not apply – it only applies to new vehicles, not converted ones. Therefore if you convert a pedal cycle which has already been ridden on the road to “twist and go” operation, it does not become subject to type approval. As previously noted, the regulations will be directed at the manufacturers and so riders making conversions are not committing an offence. Manufacturers are permitted to sell kits of this nature but would need to ensure they are in line with regulations if sold as EAPC kits (EAPC power and speed limits).”
https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/dft-pedal-cycles-converted-twist-go-exempt-type-approval/

It's even acceptable for a commercial business to do the conversion without going through the type approval process as long as the bike has previously been ridden on the road before being a ebike.

It is also our understanding that, since not all cyclists are technically proficient in fitting conversion kits to a bike, that conversion can also be carried out by a business, so long as the bike in question has been ridden on public roads before conversion (i.e. the bike is not considered ‘new’).

Ebikes with cadence sensors that just enable full 100% power at various cut off speeds culminating with 15.5mph are just a horrible ebike solution with lots of safety issues, they may be legal but they shouldn't be. It's just another travesty of the EU ebike certification. There should have been a requirement for the power to be scaled rather than speed steps which can be quite dangerous especially when you combine it with the EU's very forgiving wattage allowance where most manufacturers massively exceed 250W. Also a 100% discharge rate on the battery pack is far more likely to lead to battery pack fires because you are discharging each cell at a much more aggressive rate which is more likely to lead to cell failure. Much better to discharge at lower levels reserving a 100% discharge rate just for steep hills. Discharging at lower levels also massively extends ebike range. The best way to control the discharge rate is of course a throttle using as much or as little as you need. The most sophisticated computer on a bike is the human brain which can see upcoming road conditions and gradients and process this information easily into the right level of power and this is the norm for most ebikes in the world.

 

[404 Not Found Anywhere]

Can you suggest a controller that would work better? I bought a Panda front wheel kit years ago (Panda I think reinvented themselves subsequently as Swytch) and it does exactly as you say, the extent that I am taking if off the installed bike as it’s much nicer to ride without it!

 

[bonzobanana]

Can you suggest a controller that would work better? I bought a Panda front wheel kit years ago (Panda I think reinvented themselves subsequently as Swytch) and it does exactly as you say, the extent that I am taking if off the installed bike as it’s much nicer to ride without it!

Could you not use a throttle with your existing controller? Maybe it even came with one you didn't fit at the time? Most controllers accept a throttle input as its the norm in most countries of the world. I think KT controllers are often seen as the ideal generic controller for many ebikes which modulate power rather than speed steps. However even the most basic controllers have a variable throttle control input normally.

 

[404 Not Found Anywhere]

Thanks! I think the bike (it’s actually a Kettwiesel recumbent trike) has a KT controller and I fitted a thumb throttle after installation. It does seem a simple on/off switch in behaviour. I maybe need to dig around in the controller settings or maybe try another.

 

[bonzobanana]

What is the throttle voltage on the rating label of the controller? When you say you fitted the throttle after installation, do you mean it was a supplied throttle or third party? Some throttles are 1.2V to 4.4V some are 4V to 5V I just wondered what would happen if you had a throttle designed for 4-5V connected to a 1.2V to 4.4V input maybe you wouldn't get a full throttle range.

There's a thread here about using a throttle with a kt controller and mentions some settings plus the difference between a resistance throttle and a hall sensor throttle it might be useful information to you;

https://endless-sphere.com/sphere/threads/does-anyone-have-a-throttle-on-a-kt-controller.119927/

KT controllers are more sophisticated than some other controllers so have more variables which I guess means more setup issues but most people prefer them who like to setup their ebikes exactly as they want them plus KT controllers tend to be widely supported with displays, throttles etc.

 

[404 Not Found Anywhere]

Wow! That’s a bit above my understanding!😵‍💫

my technical level with ebike stuff is fiddle and stand back in case it explodes!