Buckled wheel again.

[Yellow Saddle]

I would have thought joining with a sleeve was something reserved for the lower end of the rim market. Higher end rims, and users of them, aren't going to be happy with such uneven rim weight placement.

How will they know? Besides, they all have it and I haven't heard a single one complain so far.

 

[PpPete]

How will they know? .

Well duh !
In precisely the way in which you describe above.

You can also see its effect on the rim if you put a finished wheel in a stand and let it spin a bit and come to rest. It will always come to rest with the lump at the bottom and the valve hole at the top

Anyway if there is no sleeve there is still going to be filler metal from the weld. It can be machined off the outside of the joint, but obviously not the inside of the box-section.

But the method of construction is entirely irrelevant to spoke breakage or even the chances of a spoke coming loose. In fact, as Dave Musson shows in his book, you could join it with Sellottape and, once laced & tensioned, you would still have a strong wheel.

 

[Spoked Wheels]

As I said, the 5% (provided the wheel is true) is not something you have control over. It is a direct function of the rim's uniformity and I've explained why they are not uniform. If the rim requires 30%, there's nothing the wheelbuilder can do to narrow the gap other than make the wheel not run true. When you achieve 5% you should not tap yourself on the shoulder for good building, you should tap yourself on the shoulder for finding a uniform rim by pure chance.

My last attempt to see if we understand each other

Say that you have a rim that needs one spoke needing considerable more tension to get the wheel true. You say I have no control because that is the nature of the rim I'm using, right? Well, I'd spread the extra tension between two or even 3 spokes, also, I can reduce tension on opposite spoke(s)
but most likely I'd use a combination of the two if the imperfection is large enough. I think you are saying, just leave the spoke with considerable more tension alone.

A wheel that requires glue to prevent the nipples from unscrewing doesn't have enough spoke tension. Thread ramp friction at tension of 1000N or so is sufficient to require a large force to turn the nipples. Glue is not required.
The method that works for you, works for you. However, it is not the method that ensures that you don't have loose spokes, it is rim quality. You are still new in the game, wait until someone buys some Chinese carbon rims on the Internet and asks you to build wheels from them. You'll quickly discover that the highest spoke tension is more than the nipples can handle without rounding off whilst the lowest is barely enough to get a tone from plucking the spoke. No matter what method you use, the end result is uneven spoke tension.

OK, NDS spokes on a rear wheel will have less than 1000N so they should have glue, right? I have never used glue on a spoke and I hope I never have to.

The end result may be uneven spoke tension but uniform, not one highly tensioned followed by one severally under tensioned.

EDIT: I wasn't sure why you were bringing up spokes tensioning to the point the nipple rounds up..... then it cane to me IIRC you are from the school of Jobst Brandt that finds the max tension a wheel can take by tensioning the spokes to the point the rims deforms and then turns the tension back a bit. For all the respect I have for JB, I never thought that method was one I'd want to apply myself so I don't see how I could find myself in that situation. Also, when there's not enough tension for plucking to work then I use a tension meter.
With very thin flat spokes, my tension meter cannot read the deviation at low tension but I'm not too concerned, at higher tension the meter does read the deflection which is what I need to know. I have a device to calibrate my tension meter that I use with some spokes to find out what number corresponds on the meter to a known amount of kgf. There are some tension meters now that can read deviation at low tension.
I'm well aware of your opinion on tension meters so no need to be rude about it

There ain't no shades of a perfect wheel and a perfect wheel has no even spoke tension, no matter what semantics you employ.

I wasn't using any semantics, sorry I agree, there's no perfectly even tension on a good wheel, nobody is saying there is. For that matter, there's no perfect wheel either but good enough wheels.

I am not sure what rims you build with but all quality rims have an extra lump of metal at the weld. You have to remove the blindfold when looking for it, because it is inside the rim, not on the outside. There is no other way of welding and machining a joint on thin-wall aluminium than with the help of this internal sleeve. Perhaps you should look inside for the lump, not on the outside. It is in the form of a thick sleeve, about 50mm long, inserted inside the two ends of the rim and peened before welded and machined. Every single rim has one. You can also see its effect on the rim if you put a finished wheel in a stand and let it spin a bit and come to rest. It will always come to rest with the lump at the bottom and the valve hole at the top. I'll dig for some old rims and take a photo of this sleeve.

It seems I misunderstood what you meant about the location of the extra lump of metal, it immediately came to mind some joints I've seen on old rims and poor quality wheels, hence the confusion. I do agree that rims aren't perfect.

I've seen rim's joints.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

Well duh !
In precisely the way in which you describe above.


Anyway if there is no sleeve there is still going to be filler metal from the weld. It can be machined off the outside of the joint, but obviously not the inside of the box-section.

But the method of construction is entirely irrelevant to spoke breakage or even the chances of a spoke coming loose. In fact, as Dave Musson shows in his book, you could join it with Sellottape and, once laced & tensioned, you would still have a strong wheel.

I have no idea what your point is.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

My last attempt to see if we understand each other

Say that you have a rim that needs one spoke needing considerable more tension to get the wheel true. You say I have no control because that is the nature of the rim I'm using, right? Well, I'd spread the extra tension between two or even 3 spokes, also, I can reduce tension on opposite spoke(s)
but most likely I'd use a combination of the two if the imperfection is large enough. I think you are saying, just leave the spoke with considerable more tension alone.

I am patient. No need to limit your attempts to comprehend.

A wheel where one spoke needs considerable more tension is a wheel with a bent rim. And that would be a very localized bend as well, since that bend will be in a space of 40 or so millimeters, that being the spacing between spokes. It is an unlikely scenario. Further, should that be the actual scenario, there's no use adding more tension to spokes somewhere before or after the bend, that would do nothing other than create a radial dent should you attempt to get the rim true. The scenario cannot be sketched, it is not plausible.

OK, NDS spokes on a rear wheel will have less than 1000N so they should have glue, right? I have never used glue on a spoke and I hope I never have to.

NDS?? Non Deforming Spokes? New Divisional Section? Too much jargon for me to comprehend. Left spokes have less tension than right spokes on rear wheels (and vise versa on disc-brake font wheels) but always enough tension to ensure that thread ramp friction overcomes any external force that wants to unscrew the nipples. Glue is for woodworking and scrapbooking. Not wheels.

The end result may be uneven spoke tension but uniform, not one highly tensioned followed by one severally under tensioned.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. I'll draw a graph and post it here.

I wasn't using any semantics, sorry I agree, there's no perfectly even tension on a good wheel, nobody is saying there is. For that matter, there's no perfect wheel either but good enough wheels.

Hu! Wait till you see my wheels. That tsssst sound you hear is the sizzling from my licked finger that touched the red-hot chip in my right shoulder.

It seems I misunderstood what you meant about the location of the extra lump of metal, it immediately came to mind some joints I've seen on old rims and poor quality wheels, hence the confusion. I do agree that rims aren't perfect.

I've seen rim's joints.

The two large areas of imperfection on rims are the rim joint and the valve hole. The valve hole is overlooked but it removes a large amount of material from the rim and makes it weaker in that area to the point that spoke tension there is noticeably slacker. You say your hearing is not good but I doubt you are tone deaf. Most of us can detect semi-tones. C above middle C rings at 523Hz whilst a semi-tone up, i.e. C# rings at 554Hz, just 6% higher, yet you will discern it with no problem. I also have no doubt that if you put a wheel on your lap and pluck it like a harp, going up and down or rather, round and round, you'll easily identify the different tones. You don't need to know that it is high D or whatever, you just need to know that it is different from adjacent spokes.

Rim imperfections can easily be found by hearing alone. Interestingly enough, the lump of metal inside the rim at the joint can either make the rim stronger or weaker in that zone, depending on how the welding was cooled and what aluminium was used in the rim - 6008 or 7004, for instance. These two alloys react differently to heat. Most rims are made of 6000 series but some like Stan's are 7000 series.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

Graph 1:
32-spoke wheel, only right side spokes numbered. Right spokes on top of graph, left spokes at bottom of graph.
Spokes 1 and 16 at valve hole, hence less tension.
Anomalies at spokes 5 and 13 regions due to rim imperfections.
Anomaly at spoke 8 due to welded rim joint.

Graph 2: Same as Graph 1 but with wheel with permanent buckle in the rim at spoke 4 region.

Graph 3: Shows standard rear wheel with one or two anomalies but built with Campag hub that has a higher left-right tension differentiation than Shimano hubs.

Graph 4: Wishfull thinking wheel. Perfectly even spoke tension left and right. Not a real wheel.

 

[Ajax Bay]

Non Drive Side

 

[Yellow Saddle]

Non Drive Side

You mean left?

 

[Ajax Bay]

NDS is on the left side of normally designed bikes, when looking forward, but NDS does not stand for 'left'. Let's not place limits on imagination. Very interesting and informative graphs and analysis - thank you for sharing.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

NDS is on the left side of normally designed bikes, when looking forward, but NDS does not stand for 'left'. Let's not place limits on imagination. Very interesting and informative graphs and analysis - thank you for sharing.

Thanks for the compliment but back to my hobby horse. Isn't right and left so much easier? Whether you look forward or backward, the right side and left side of a bicycle remains in the same position. It's like your feet, even if you hang from the ceiling by your toes and spin around whilst banging your head to AC/DC Thunderstruck (my wake-up music this morning), then your left foot still remains on your left leg, on the left side of the body. We don't have to revert to terms like appendix side (AS) and non-appendix side (NAS) to locate individual feet. This hardly limits the imagination but cuts to the chase without any waste of precious letters and words.

This is a rhetoric statement of course. I'll make similar ones on the strange use of the plural for fork when the opportunity arises.

 

[Spoked Wheels]

NDS is on the left side of normally designed bikes, when looking forward, but NDS does not stand for 'left'. Let's not place limits on imagination. Very interesting and informative graphs and analysis - thank you for sharing.

I tried not to come back to this thread but such arrogance gets the better of me.

NDS or left? To me Non Drive Side seems more accurate definition but I have no problem accepting left side too. I know that any argument with Yellow Saddle is either his way or no way and I'm not interested in talking to a brick wall.

About graph 1, thanks for that, now my suspicious have been answered 400 N tension difference between spokes cannot be described as other than lazy wheelbuilding. I have already described what I would do and why I spend 35% of my time bringing that tension gap much closer together when building a wheel so I will not repeat myself.

About graph 4. That is not what I said "even tension" meant in wheel building. I see malicious manipulation of information.

 

[winjim]

I tried not to come back to this thread but such arrogance gets the better of me.

Remember there are those of us reading the thread, taking in all sides of the discussion and deciding for ourselves which pieces of information are useful, which to view with some skepticism and which are bunkum.

Watching people disagree can be a very useful learning exercise

 

[Yellow Saddle]

I tried not to come back to this thread but such arrogance gets the better of me.

NDS or left? To me Non Drive Side seems more accurate definition but I have no problem accepting left side too. I know that any argument with Yellow Saddle is either his way or no way and I'm not interested in talking to a brick wall.

About graph 1, thanks for that, now my suspicious have been answered 400 N tension difference between spokes cannot be described as other than lazy wheelbuilding. I have already described what I would do and why I spend 35% of my time bringing that tension gap much closer together when building a wheel so I will not repeat myself.

About graph 4. That is not what I said "even tension" meant in wheel building. I see malicious manipulation of information.

Every three months you go through a phase where you imagine deliberate offence and then leave the room in a huff, only talking to me through intermediaries. Don't flatter yourself. Those graphs are intended to illustrate points I made, not to mock something you've invented in your imagination. The tensions indicated are by no means intended as ideal spoke tensions.

Further, if a wheel calls for a 400N difference in tension, then it calls for it. You cannot dictate the difference, that's a function of the wheel's dishing. Dishing (for the benefit of non-builders, is the difference in spoke arrival angle between left and right spokes [please god don't let him read anything deeper into my use of left and right here] necessitated by cassette offset on the hub flange positioning. You can dictate the baseline, but not the difference between left and right. But then, I suppose you already know that and will prove it to us by wriggling out with a semantics clause again.

With each comeback you utter a prelude of sorts stating that you are entering the debate under duress. Nobody forces you to the debate.

 

[Ajax Bay]

Since you quoted me, @Spoked Wheels on your NDS point, I agree: I think that describing spokes as 'Non Drive Side' is both accurate and encourages those reading to think/envisage the rear wheel and what the difference is with the right (side) spokes (and - stretch target - why). If @Yellow Saddle prefers 'left' that's fine too, and I think he wastes effort and time trying to effect such minutia of terminology change (and please let's let sleeping forks lie). Whereas his efforts to define and encourage the use of 'skip', 'skate' and 'slip' with regard to chain misbehaviour is worthwhile and helps differentiate symptom and possible causes.

I've read your earlier post now edited with the rear wheel tension data and those data show uniform/even tension (defined as within 10%). @Yellow Saddle suggests that you must be lucky with your choice of rim to achieve this ie finding ones which are very true in both dimensions and without the anomalies he would expect at the rim weld and the valve hole. Have you particular recommendations at the various price points for rims - if you like, limit the category to 32 hole alloy clinchers?

 

[Spoked Wheels]

Since you quoted me, @Spoked Wheels on your NDS point, I agree: I think that describing spokes as 'Non Drive Side' is both accurate and encourages those reading to think/envisage the rear wheel and what the difference is with the right (side) spokes (and - stretch target - why). If @Yellow Saddle prefers 'left' that's fine too, and I think he wastes effort and time trying to effect such minutia of terminology change (and please let's let sleeping forks lie). Whereas his efforts to define and encourage the use of 'skip', 'skate' and 'slip' with regard to chain misbehaviour is worthwhile and helps differentiate symptom and possible causes.

I've read your earlier post now edited with the rear wheel tension data and those data show uniform/even tension (defined as within 10%). @Yellow Saddle suggests that you must be lucky with your choice of rim to achieve this ie finding ones which are very true in both dimensions and without the anomalies he would expect at the rim weld and the valve hole. Have you particular recommendations at the various price points for rims - if you like, limit the category to 32 hole alloy clinchers?

The data sheet I posted above is not mine. It's was published by an American wheel builder that was talking about building with a Shimano Hub Gear IIRC. I was impressed,I have not got that close. Rims have imperfections and some have bigger imperfections. Graph1 shows a very standard rim.

I'd suggest you read Roger Mussom ebook and pay special attention to what he calls "balancing the spoke tension", alternatively examine a wheel built by a good builder and you'll see that I'm not talking nonsense, Harry Rowland would be my choice.

I like the H Plus Son Archetype but there are many others that also, with a bit of work, build into very good wheels. The Velocity A23 for some reason sometimes come with large imperfections.

When I first started building wheels, the two hardest tasks were balancing the tension and truing horizontally. With time my ear got better and balancing got easier. On a good rim I probably need two passes but with most wheels it takes 3 or even 4 passes which I repeat twice again but these times the process is very quick. I know a builder that uses a tension meter to do the balancing cause he is tone deft, that is even more time consuming but if you want to build something that you are proud to associate your name with then you have to do it right