Buckled wheel again.

[Yellow Saddle]

Maybe so but, given any choice over the matter, I would not put any wheel of mine in any pothole.

Neither would I, but the point is that a pothole causes dents, not buckles.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

Good wheel are true, with spokes evenly tightened to the correct tension.
Cheap wheels often start with rims that are not dead flat, so they are built with uneven tension to be true.
With any new wheel, you should ping the spokes to detect low or high tension, and try and even them out. If the wheel does go out of true, you have to find a compromise.
Building a wheel with quality components is easier than playing whack-a-mole with uneven components.

I had my LBS build a commuter wheel out of low/midrange components. He selected a flat rim and built a bombproof wheel that wasn't too expensive.

How did your LBS manage to build a wheel that's both true and had spokes with even tension?
Why does even spoke tension matter to the point that they give off the same tone when plucked?
What are uneven components?

 

[markharry66]

Point being when they replace the spoke at my local shop they true wheel not point of question but thanks.

 

[MichaelW2]

Some rims come pre-buckled or tacoed and need sideways pull of the spoke to keep the brake surfaces even.
My LBS picked a cheap rim which happened to be flat. Cheap (Shimano) hubs and plain-guage spokes can be just as reliable as lighter wheels, if built well.
Spokes only contribute to wheel strength when under tension. Spoke tension should be sufficient to remain in tension under max load. If you apply a big load to one of the slacker spokes, it can loose all tension and at that point, the rim is unsupported.
If you ping and hear a relatively low frequency, there is a danger that the spoke is doing nothing useful.

 

[MichaelW2]

Well there is the issue of spoke flex in butted ones, but that is a secondary issue, even a marginal one, after build quality.

 

[palinurus]

Bikes themself are quite good just stock wheels are not much cop.

Often the case. I've bought a couple of cheapish road bikes for commuting, In both cases I used the the stock wheels until either spokes started to break or the rims and or hubs were worn out, then I had some budget handbuilts made up at the LBS with some midrange hubs and reasonable rims.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

Should we or shouldn't we?

 

[SatNavSaysStraightOn]

I not sure why always seems to be my luck with btwin wheels.
As always I purchased a hybrid bike from Decathlon.
Had it three months as always (its happend three time now) I had a loose spoke with broke.

The wheel had already started to buckle a few days before.
I took it back got the spoke repaired. No problem.

Had a puncture over the weekend put the wheel back on now seems to not be running true.
Am I doing something wrong amazing as it may sound I can change gear cables, breaks etc but suck with Wheels.

Sadly both my husband and I have had the same issues with the decathlon stock wheels on our Triban 3's. Though I was fortunate enough not to break any spikes, my husband was not. I was constantly retruing the wheels, all 4 of them. I also went through wheel bearings constantly and after less than 9 months gave up and spent £100 on a new set of wheels for my T3.

My husband held out another 9 months or so before he gave up and bought some RS501s for about £65. They have been considerably better and I haven't had to look at the again with no buckles and only the 1 broken spoke where the wheel retrued really easily and hadn't shown any problems since.

Sadly it had also been my experience that the stock wheels do not retrue easily and do trend to have spoke issues and reading what others have said in the past, many many people have had the same problems.

Here is a link to the Triban 3 owners club. There is plenty of talk about the wheels.
www.cyclechat.net/threads/triban-3-owners-club.121260/

 

[Globalti]

BTwin bikes are good value but the wheels are made of cheese. A new front wheel costs £25.

Buy some Shimano or Mavic wheels, keep the BTwin wheels and put them back on the bike when you sell it on, keeping the good wheels for your next bike.

 

[Spoked Wheels]

I have never worked on or even inspected a Triban 3 set of stock wheels but my experience suggest that the quality of the components on stock wheels is poor on most bikes. They are also under tensioned. They are made to look lovely though. Even the cheapest wheels from shimano can be an improvement sometimes.

 

[Spoked Wheels]

How did your LBS manage to build a wheel that's both true and had spokes with even tension?
Why does even spoke tension matter to the point that they give off the same tone when plucked?
What are uneven components?

Old thread but I think the post deserves a reply.

I'm sure @Yellow Saddle knows the answers but he doesn't seem to like ambiguities, hence the same type of questions time and time again

"Even tension" in wheel building doesn't mean that every spoke has the same tension, hence the question. I also use the term "even tension" ( guilty as charged ) and by that I mean that I try to achieve a uniform spoke tension. In other words, if I were to measure the tension on a finished wheel and I got something like 120, 123, 117, etc then I'd say that the wheel has even tension. The important thing here is that I don't have something like 120, 125, 81, 130, etc or the other way around with under tensioned spokes to compensate for excessively over tensioned spokes. I try to achieve a 5% max tolerance, in other words, if the average is 120 then 5% higher or 5% lower tension is OK. Some builders are happy with a bit more than 5% and others probably less than 5%.

So "How did your LBS manage to build a wheel that's both true and had spokes with even tension?" Like I just explained but I'd have to add that It would be impossible to achieve a wheel with identical spoke tension on every spoke and true at the time.


"Why does even spoke tension matter to the point that they give off the same tone when plucked?" My hearing is pretty good but not good enough to be able to tell two spokes have the same tension by their tone. What tone tell us is that the spokes have "even tension", as I explained above. We use tone plucking to help find spokes that are under tension or over tension, nothing more than that. The end result should be a set spokes tensioned to within 5% tolerance of the average tension. Having said that, common sense should prevail.


"What are uneven components?" I don't know but my guess is that he means good quality components together with not so good.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

Old thread but I think the post deserves a reply.

I'm sure @Yellow Saddle knows the answers but he doesn't seem to like ambiguities, hence the same type of questions time and time again

"Even tension" in wheel building doesn't mean that every spoke has the same tension, hence the question. I also use the term "even tension" ( guilty as charged ) and by that I mean that I try to achieve a uniform spoke tension. In other words, if I were to measure the tension on a finished wheel and I got something like 120, 123, 117, etc then I'd say that the wheel has even tension. The important thing here is that I don't have something like 120, 125, 81, 130, etc or the other way around with under tensioned spokes to compensate for excessively over tensioned spokes. I try to achieve a 5% max tolerance, in other words, if the average is 120 then 5% higher or 5% lower tension is OK. Some builders are happy with a bit more than 5% and others probably less than 5%.

So "How did your LBS manage to build a wheel that's both true and had spokes with even tension?" Like I just explained but I'd have to add that It would be impossible to achieve a wheel with identical spoke tension on every spoke and true at the time.


"Why does even spoke tension matter to the point that they give off the same tone when plucked?" My hearing is pretty good but not good enough to be able to tell two spokes have the same tension by their tone. What tone tell us is that the spokes have "even tension", as I explained above. We use tone plucking to help find spokes that are under tension or over tension, nothing more than that. The end result should be a set spokes tensioned to within 5% tolerance of the average tension. Having said that, common sense should prevail.


"What are uneven components?" I don't know but my guess is that he means good quality components together with not so good.

Well then, the term even tension is a complete misnomer and the use of it creates the expectation with customers that it is something to be desired. Like I said, a wheel with even spoke tension cannot be true and wheel that is true cannot have even spoke tension. Only if you have a perfect rim and perfect spokes can you have even spoke tension and an even wheel. However, the way rims are manufactured makes them uneven at point of manufacture. The welded joint calls for an extra lump of metal at the joint. Also, the extrusion process is not perfect and even on unwelded sections of rim you will find thickness variations. Spokes are swaged from thicker wire and this process also cannot guarantee even sections. You 5% is very optimistic, especially with carbon rims which can have a variance of up to 300N (where max sometimes is 1500 Newton but average 1000N).

The reason for even tension is often given in the bible of lunacy - the bicycle magazine - as something to be desired otherwise the tension will even out by itself and then the wheel will be out of true. Nothing could be further from the truth, spokes cannot adjust their own tension and more so, they don't have mechanisms to sense when they are all at the same tension. It is kinda weird in their world that rear wheel tension doesn't equalize from left to right and cause the rim to go off centre.

Your ambition to strive for a max tolerance of 5% is pie in the sky. The rim's construction dictates that margin, not your wishes.

I understand your use of the term but in my black-and-white life even is even. Wheelbuilding is so full of lore and myth that even a small transgression like that will be smited down with great fury. It is far more useful to strive for and refer to wheels with high tension (desirable), trueness (desirable) and stress-relieved. Tension variation is a given but of no concern to the user at all.

 

[Spoked Wheels]

Well then, the term even tension is a complete misnomer and the use of it creates the expectation with customers that it is something to be desired. Like I said, a wheel with even spoke tension cannot be true and wheel that is true cannot have even spoke tension. Only if you have a perfect rim and perfect spokes can you have even spoke tension and an even wheel. However, the way rims are manufactured makes them uneven at point of manufacture. The welded joint calls for an extra lump of metal at the joint. Also, the extrusion process is not perfect and even on unwelded sections of rim you will find thickness variations. Spokes are swaged from thicker wire and this process also cannot guarantee even sections. You 5% is very optimistic, especially with carbon rims which can have a variance of up to 300N (where max sometimes is 1500 Newton but average 1000N).

It seems we only disagree on the use of the term even tension. I just explained that so I'm not going to repeat myself.

5% optimistic..... I posted the reading of some American wheel builder some time ago, I can't remember where, his tolerance was 3 something %.... I was impressed with that. You are welcome to check any of my wheels.

EDIT: I can't remember the thread where I posted the tension data but I still have it on my laptop so here it is....

The reason for even tension is often given in the bible of lunacy - the bicycle magazine - as something to be desired otherwise the tension will even out by itself and then the wheel will be out of true. Nothing could be further from the truth, spokes cannot adjust their own tension and more so, they don't have mechanisms to sense when they are all at the same tension. It is kinda weird in their world that rear wheel tension doesn't equalize from left to right and cause the rim to go off centre.

I have not read such definition but although I agree that spokes cannot tighten by themselves, they can loosen, some builders go to the extent to glue the nipples to the spoke. I'm not talking about spoke twisting.
A rough estimate tells me that I could probably save 35% of my time building a wheel, horizontally and laterally true and sufficiently tension, if I didn't spend any time making sure the spokes are around the same tension. Most of the top builders I know or I have read about, do the same as I do. I must say that if I were to adopt what you are saying it would save me a great deal of time but I would not have the same confidence on the work I do I have to say that the method I follow to build wheels would not allow for very loose spokes unless there is a problem with the rim. Modern rims are pretty good when it comes to being straight, you do get the odd rim that might be less perfect than most or a particular model that has a high number with problems...... so with that in mind, I'd rather use a different rim if I find that I cannot keep a uniform spoke tension and wheel true than fighting the rim.

Your ambition to strive for a max tolerance of 5% is pie in the sky. The rim's construction dictates that margin, not your wishes

Again, you are welcome to inspect my wheels and I'd love to do likewise

I understand your use of the term but in my black-and-white life even is even. Wheelbuilding is so full of lore and myth that even a small transgression like that will be smited down with great fury. It is far more useful to strive for and refer to wheels with high tension (desirable), trueness (desirable) and stress-relieved. Tension variation is a given but of no concern to the user at all.

Life is never black and white, there are many shades in between that one needs to be able to see

The same is true in many fields where people consider ambiguities not to be important. Sometimes a little imagination is needed when communicating. Of course there are times when one needs to clarify concepts and ambiguities are undesirable.

High tension, trueness, stress-relieved.... agree, all desirables. Tension variation, not a concern to the user? Disagree.

It's obvious that we agree on certain things and others we don't - You say "The welded joint calls for an extra lump of metal at the joint." very true on old rims I have seen and on current low quality stock wheels but most of the rims I build wheels with aren't like that, in fact, I think I'd fail to find the joint if I was blindfolded.
I'm quite happy with the techniques I use to build wheels and I'm always keen to learn new things but I have to be honest and disagree with some of your views expressed here on wheel building. I'm, in comparison to your said experience, a youngster but so far I'm quite happy with the results, only the other day, one of our fellow members ( @Soltydog ) wrote to me to tell me his wheel had survived an accident, saving him from a long walk home.... so I must be doing something right I guess

 

[Yellow Saddle]

It seems we only disagree on the use of the term even tension. I just explained that so I'm not going to repeat myself.

5% optimistic..... I posted the reading of some American wheel builder some time ago, I can't remember where, his tolerance was 3 something %.... I was impressed with that. You are welcome to check any of my wheels.

As I said, the 5% (provided the wheel is true) is not something you have control over. It is a direct function of the rim's uniformity and I've explained why they are not uniform. If the rim requires 30%, there's nothing the wheelbuilder can do to narrow the gap other than make the wheel not run true. When you achieve 5% you should not tap yourself on the shoulder for good building, you should tap yourself on the shoulder for finding a uniform rim by pure chance.

I have not read such definition but although I agree that spokes cannot tighten by themselves, they can loosen, some builders go to the extent to glue the nipples to the spoke. I'm not talking about spoke twisting.
A rough estimate tells me that I could probably save 35% of my time building a wheel, horizontally and laterally true and sufficiently tension, if I didn't spend any time making sure the spokes are around the same tension. Most of the top builders I know or I have read about, do the same as I do. I must say that if I were to adopt what you are saying it would save me a great deal of time but I would not have the same confidence on the work I do I have to say that the method I follow to build wheels would not allow for very loose spokes unless there is a problem with the rim. Modern rims are pretty good when it comes to being straight, you do get the odd rim that might be less perfect than most or a particular model that has a high number with problems...... so with that in mind, I'd rather use a different rim if I find that I cannot keep a uniform spoke tension and wheel true than fighting the rim.

A wheel that requires glue to prevent the nipples from unscrewing doesn't have enough spoke tension. Thread ramp friction at tension of 1000N or so is sufficient to require a large force to turn the nipples. Glue is not required.
The method that works for you, works for you. However, it is not the method that ensures that you don't have loose spokes, it is rim quality. You are still new in the game, wait until someone buys some Chinese carbon rims on the Internet and asks you to build wheels from them. You'll quickly discover that the highest spoke tension is more than the nipples can handle without rounding off whilst the lowest is barely enough to get a tone from plucking the spoke. No matter what method you use, the end result is uneven spoke tension.

Again, you are welcome to inspect my wheels and I'd love to do likewise

You are obviously keen for me to look at your wheels. If you are prepared to put up with the logistics, contact me offline.

Life is never black and white, there are many shades in between that one needs to be able to see

There ain't no shades of a perfect wheel and a perfect wheel has no even spoke tension, no matter what semantics you employ.

It's obvious that we agree on certain things and others we don't - You say "The welded joint calls for an extra lump of metal at the joint." very true on old rims I have seen and on current low quality stock wheels but most of the rims I build wheels with aren't like that, in fact, I think I'd fail to find the joint if I was blindfolded.

I am not sure what rims you build with but all quality rims have an extra lump of metal at the weld. You have to remove the blindfold when looking for it, because it is inside the rim, not on the outside. There is no other way of welding and machining a joint on thin-wall aluminium than with the help of this internal sleeve. Perhaps you should look inside for the lump, not on the outside. It is in the form of a thick sleeve, about 50mm long, inserted inside the two ends of the rim and peened before welded and machined. Every single rim has one. You can also see its effect on the rim if you put a finished wheel in a stand and let it spin a bit and come to rest. It will always come to rest with the lump at the bottom and the valve hole at the top. I'll dig for some old rims and take a photo of this sleeve.

 

[adscrim]

I am not sure what rims you build with but all quality rims have an extra lump of metal at the weld. You have to remove the blindfold when looking for it, because it is inside the rim, not on the outside. There is no other way of welding and machining a joint on thin-wall aluminium than with the help of this internal sleeve. Perhaps you should look inside for the lump, not on the outside. It is in the form of a thick sleeve, about 50mm long, inserted inside the two ends of the rim and peened before welded and machined. Every single rim has one. You can also see its effect on the rim if you put a finished wheel in a stand and let it spin a bit and come to rest. It will always come to rest with the lump at the bottom and the valve hole at the top. I'll dig for some old rims and take a photo of this sleeve.

I would have thought joining with a sleeve was something reserved for the lower end of the rim market. Higher end rims, and users of them, aren't going to be happy with such uneven rim weight placement.