Dutch Sustainable Safety in action

[dellzeqq]

quite. Self-healing is a great expression. The constricted width of the streets, some of which have seen footpaths widened (I'm thinking particularly of Brixton) imposes a kind of 'natural' speed limit on all but a minority of homeward bound cyclists who steam through zebra crossings like snowploughs.

As for what is tolerated or not in Stratford I think you know the answer to this. Democracy in Newham is at a premium. The borough's councillors are muppets. They've slathered love and money over Westfield, which is just grotesque, and, in urban terms asked for nothing absolutely nothing in return. Sadly these people are elected, and it may be that you are one of the electors. All I can suggest is that you do a bit of canvassing.

That's the rub. The Netherlands is a Calvinist state in which the way you wipe your arse is regulated by the State. People choose this ordering of life because, as children, they were beaten with bibles. Hence the ghastly road systems.

 

[Richard Mann]

Strange how Stratford gyratory still has markings for A11 and A12 when those have long since been diverted elsewhere. Newmarket! It's the junction of a few local roads; it doesn't need that capacity any more. Cutting one section of the ring and making the rest two-way would probably do it.

Dell - it was posted by a Dutchman who seriously believed it showed how wonderful the Dutch approach is. (And has asked me to say that he still does)

 

[mickle]

From Twitter:

@amsterdamized Amsterdamize
"15 cyclists a week were killed or injured as a result of a hit and run in London" > dominant #CycleChat members are a-ok with these facts.

And:
@amsterdamized Amsterdamize
cyclechat.net/threads/dutch-… I think he's also an honorary member of the Flat Earth Society #CycleChat #UK #NL

Meow.

 

[dellzeqq]

as fine an advertisement for Twitter as one could wish for.......

 

[ozzage]

I don't agree with the insults directed at the people on this forum from twitter, but I find it utterly unbelievable that somebody can look at that video and think "not for me, thanks".

Having lived in Amsterdam for 3.5 years before moving to London (I'm originally from Australia, where I was a boy racer car fanatic :P) I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that the infrastructure and yes, the segregation, is a massive part of what makes Dutch cycling great. Sure there are 30 zones everywhere and considerate drivers, but there is also LOTS of traffic on main roads and lots of traffic jams and if I had to cycle along with it like I do here, then I would never have picked up cycling as a habit. And I'm sure that the Dutch wouldn't cycle a tenth as much either. Cycling in NL is relaxing and FUN and suitable for all ages. It will never be those things here without segregation on main routes.

As for not enough space... why do you think that Dutch cities have any more space than British ones! They just have less traffic lanes!

I still cycle here but it's a VERY LONG WAY from how it was in NL and I'm astounded when I read that people actually prefer it the way it is HERE!!

 

[MrHappyCyclist]

I don't agree with the insults directed at the people on this forum from twitter, but I find it utterly unbelievable that somebody can look at that video and think "not for me, thanks".
Having lived in Amsterdam for 3.5 years before moving to London (I'm originally from Australia, where I was a boy racer car fanatic :P) I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that the infrastructure and yes, the segregation, is a massive part of what makes Dutch cycling great. Sure there are 30 zones everywhere and considerate drivers, but there is also LOTS of traffic on main roads and lots of traffic jams and if I had to cycle along with it like I do here, then I would never have picked up cycling as a habit. And I'm sure that the Dutch wouldn't cycle a tenth as much either. Cycling in NL is relaxing and FUN and suitable for all ages. It will never be those things here without segregation on main routes.
As for not enough space... why do you think that Dutch cities have any more space than British ones! They just have less traffic lanes!
I still cycle here but it's a VERY LONG WAY from how it was in NL and I'm astounded when I read that people actually prefer it the way it is HERE!!

For me, as someone who has not cycled in Holland, the problem is that most of the videos and articles we see make it look as though the whole country is covered with massive, wide roads that all include huge cycle lanes, and no room for people who are not actually travelling from one place to another. These videos and articles also give the impression that, for many people here, "going Dutch" is only about segregation everywhere. No mention of efforts to change attitudes (especially of drivers), change laws, etc.

It might be useful if the people who post articles and show videos of some "wonderful" bit of infrastructure, would give examples of what sort of place in Britain they would advocate creating something similar. As it is, we probably end up not comparing like-for-like.

Taking the video in the OP, where might we see something like that shown at 0:53? That does look rather awful if it's a place where people are expected to live or work:

 

[Richard Mann]

...I'm astounded when I read that people actually prefer it the way it is HERE!!

I think almost all are dissatisfied with what we have here, but want to do something different (or think it's only possible to achieve something different) from the purely-segregationist view of the Netherlands portrayed in that video.

In fact a more-integrationist approach, using cycle lanes (and traffic taming) is not at all uncommon in the Netherlands, with Groningen as quite a good example.

 

[slowmotion]

let's face it, it's completely horrible. Like Milton Keynes, but less fun.

Go Dutch? No thanks.......

It's not entirely about segregation though. Have a look at this. I'm guessing that you will approve.

http://www.terena.org/webcam/

 

[dellzeqq]

Ozzage - you're new here, so I'm going to take this slowly...

Take another look at the video. Compare the distance between the buildings on any one of those 'streets' with the distance between the buildings on the bulk of radial commuter routes in to London - Harrow Road, Uxbridge Road, Lower Richmond Road, Wandsworth Road, Battersea Park Road, Clapham Road, Streatham High Road and Brixton Road, the Walworth Road, Tooley Street, the Mile End Road, Bow Road, Romford Road, Kingsland Road, Essex Road, Caledonian Road, Edgware Road....and you will see that, by and large, the buildings shown in the video are further, much further apart than the buildings on the main commuter links. That's a bit of a problem............

Further, you will see that those commuter roads in London have what are called 'active street frontages' in that people passing by stop and (horrible word) engage with the buildings to the side of the road. They walk, often crossing the road, they get on and off buses at bus stops which are closely spaced, they get on and off bikes and they sometimes park their cars. People make deliveries in vans and trucks. Now, look at the video again. There's no sign of this. People, however they are travelling, are on their way to somewhere. That may be because these roads are main highways, but, given the lack of traffic of all types, I somehow doubt it. The frontages are blank, isolated, not contributing activity. That's kind of uncivilised in the sense that civility is about recognising and getting on with ones fellow citizens.

Now, even if you could prove to me that the demolition of all those street frontages to allow the construction of the kind of highway system you seem to want would increase cycling dramatically (and you can't, because it won't) I'd still be against it, because I want to live in a city that is sociable, engaging, where people meet each other, where there are no arbitrary divisions between different kinds of people.

Now - if you read my first contribution you will see that I mention Milton Keynes. You should move there. Cycle paths everywhere. I rode through Milton Keynes during the morning rush hour last Thursday. I did not see one other cyclist. Not one. On the other hand I rode across central London twice this morning and saw thousands of cyclists. And here is the rub. Milton Keynes is a hell-hole. London is the most fun city in the world to live in, except, in my opinion, Beirut and Mexico City (where there are precious few cycle paths).

And now refer to the LCN+ thread on this very board. We, as taxpayers, spent £200 million on cycle routes in London, routes designed by cyclists. Nobody used them. Those ungrateful new cyclists, pedalling BSOs of every description, and some that defy description, went straight down the main roads - before Cycling Superhighways were ever thought of.

So, in summary

- it's not going to happen because it would involve knocking down lots of buildings (copyright Red Light)
- it's not going to happen because it's horrible
- it's not going to happen because nobody wants it
- it's not going to happen because it would be horrendously expensive, and nobody is going to throw good money after the £200million that's already been spunked up the wall

 

[StuartG]

Take another look at the video. Compare the distance between the buildings on any one of those 'streets' with the distance between the buildings on the bulk of radial commuter routes in to London - Harrow Road, Uxbridge Road, Lower Richmond Road, Wandsworth Road, Battersea Park Road, Clapham Road, Streatham High Road and Brixton Road, the Walworth Road, Tooley Street, the Mile End Road, Bow Road, Romford Road, Kingsland Road, Essex Road, Caledonian Road, Edgware Road....and you will see that, by and large, the buildings shown in the video are further, much further apart than the buildings on the main commuter links. That's a bit of a problem...........

Del - yes this may an arguement for the above but we still fail dismally to find any solution where there is room. Indeed we do the opposite.

Here is a link to a road I used to cycle regularly: http://g.co/maps/cdsgv
It is Southend Road, Bellingham and was built as a wide dual carriageway to relieve the South Circular (before they decide to not relieve it). You could cycle reasonably safely in the inside lane and the cars had plenty of room to pass. Speeding (>30 mph) was not too bad. Then Lewisham decided to improve it at considerable cost converting the inside lane into permanent and free parking. Meanwhile the central refuge and junctions were 'shaped' to funnel traffic.

The result is that there is no place to cycle but the fast lane. You have to keep to primary to avoid the door zone and if you don't you get sideswapped by cars being funnelled from the right. If you do maintain primary, are a bit tired, carrying a load and on the uphill stretch then drivers get, understandably, a little tetchy. I took a Bikeability Instructor there and asked him how to cycle it. He went a funny colour. He had no solution.

Actually all those parked vehicles could be accommodated in front driveways as they would have been done if this was a private surburbia. So there you are. Given the opportunity Lewisham can screw it up making the street even uglier, more dangerous and busier (given that I now drive that route and seldom see any idiot trying to cycle it).

The Dutch solution may not be ideal but its better than we have got where it could so easily be applied. There may be better solutions but I'd settle for it. Especially after Frank's Dutch (sorry Netherlandy) tour last November ...

 

[ozzage]

[QUOTE 1695966, member: 45"]Going Dutch isn't about segregation, but options. You'll see as many cyclists on the roads as on the cycle path beside the road, and it's far more accepted over here.[/quote]

I don't really agree with that. I virtually never saw cyclists on the road when there was a path. It is (to everybody in the UK's horror) usually illegal but more than that you'd be mad to do it when the paths are so much easier and more relaxing! Maybe the fitness guys use the roads but I never really saw that, and I was mostly driving in the NL as I needed to criss-cross the country for work.

re the width in the videos - yes I don't know where that was but it's hardly typical of the whole place. Cities still look like cities, mostly. There are heaps of videos around showing Dutch infrastructure in various guises, in old medieval town centres and on normal city streets.

 

[ozzage]

BTW Amsterdam is not really considered to have very good cycling infrastructure. It has many of the problems of London with narrow streets - often worse in fact.

They solve it by basically making it impractical to drive into the centre. VERY annoying by car but nobody really minds as they ride or take the tram. Main issue is the fact that there are so many pedestrians (tourists and shoppers) that you can't even easily cycle right through the middle and have to basically go around the edge of the centre to get to the other side if you need to do it quickly!

 

[dand_uk]

Ozzage - you're new here, so I'm going to take this slowly...

Take another look at the video. Compare the distance between the buildings on any one of those 'streets' with the distance between the buildings on the bulk of radial commuter routes in to London - Harrow Road, Uxbridge Road, Lower Richmond Road, Wandsworth Road, Battersea Park Road, Clapham Road, Streatham High Road and Brixton Road, the Walworth Road, Tooley Street, the Mile End Road, Bow Road, Romford Road, Kingsland Road, Essex Road, Caledonian Road, Edgware Road....and you will see that, by and large, the buildings shown in the video are further, much further apart than the buildings on the main commuter links. That's a bit of a problem............

Further, you will see that those commuter roads in London have what are called 'active street frontages' in that people passing by stop and (horrible word) engage with the buildings to the side of the road. They walk, often crossing the road, they get on and off buses at bus stops which are closely spaced, they get on and off bikes and they sometimes park their cars. People make deliveries in vans and trucks. Now, look at the video again. There's no sign of this. People, however they are travelling, are on their way to somewhere. That may be because these roads are main highways, but, given the lack of traffic of all types, I somehow doubt it. The frontages are blank, isolated, not contributing activity. That's kind of uncivilised in the sense that civility is about recognising and getting on with ones fellow citizens.

Now, even if you could prove to me that the demolition of all those street frontages to allow the construction of the kind of highway system you seem to want would increase cycling dramatically (and you can't, because it won't) I'd still be against it, because I want to live in a city that is sociable, engaging, where people meet each other, where there are no arbitrary divisions between different kinds of people.

Now - if you read my first contribution you will see that I mention Milton Keynes. You should move there. Cycle paths everywhere. I rode through Milton Keynes during the morning rush hour last Thursday. I did not see one other cyclist. Not one. On the other hand I rode across central London twice this morning and saw thousands of cyclists. And here is the rub. Milton Keynes is a hell-hole. London is the most fun city in the world to live in, except, in my opinion, Beirut and Mexico City (where there are precious few cycle paths).

And now refer to the LCN+ thread on this very board. We, as taxpayers, spent £200 million on cycle routes in London, routes designed by cyclists. Nobody used them. Those ungrateful new cyclists, pedalling BSOs of every description, and some that defy description, went straight down the main roads - before Cycling Superhighways were ever thought of.

So, in summary

- it's not going to happen because it would involve knocking down lots of buildings (copyright Red Light)
- it's not going to happen because it's horrible
- it's not going to happen because nobody wants it
- it's not going to happen because it would be horrendously expensive, and nobody is going to throw good money after the £200million that's already been spunked up the wall

our roads are too narrow => http://www.hembrowcyclingholidays.com/comparisons.html

 

[GrumpyGregry]

our roads are too narrow => http://www.hembrowcyclingholidays.com/comparisons.html

So. Some roads in the UK are as wide as some in the Netherlands. And your point is?

 

[ozzage]

[QUOTE 1696500, member: 45"]Seriously? Amsterdam is great to cycle around. All of it, centre and outskirts. And, conversely to what you claim, bikes are everywhere. On the cycle paths, on the roads, on the pavements, wrong way up one-ways, through red lights.... And people hardly bat an eyelid.

And you see people being put off driving into city centres as a bad thing? That's how it should be.[/quote]

First the last comment: No I think it's great! I drove in a few times but usually I was on my bike or by tram. I LIKE the fact that it's annoying for drivers. I wish Covent Garden and Soho were like that too...

And yes there are bikes everywhere, but on main roads where there are cycle paths available they are very rarely on the road. Obviously when there is no cycle path they are... I cycled a lot in Amsterdam for several years so I'm pretty happy with the accuracy of my statements: compared to many other Dutch cities it's not great (particularly in the very centre). Of course compared to anywhere in the UK it's WONDERFUL!