Dutch Sustainable Safety in action

[dellzeqq]

Unlike over here, cyclists aren't seen as eccentric weirdos or lycra nazis. Frankly every mile was just brilliant and I struggle to see why some UK cyclists don't like it. We're not all cut out for dressing up likewe're in the TDF and charging along 8 lane highways at 40mph.

this is the same old tosh put out by Sustrans ten years ago. If you can't make a decent case witter on about lycra and the Tour de France.

To recap
- nobody wants it
- nobody is going to pay for it
- it's horrible

 

[GrumpyGregry]

this is the same old tosh put out by Sustrans ten years ago. If you can't make a decent case witter on about lycra and the Tour de France.

To recap
- nobody wants it
- nobody is going to pay for it
- it's horrible

You're slipping. We used look forward to several rounds of "Show me the drawing" but nobody ever did, or could.

 

[Glow worm]

To recap
- nobody wants it
- nobody is going to pay for it
- it's horrible

That's your opinion and that's fine of course. IMHO though, as long as we have attitudes like yours cycling will only ever be perceived as a peripheral activity for eccentrics in the UK by yer average Joe.

 

[dellzeqq]

That's your opinion and that's fine of course. IMHO though, as long as we have attitudes like yours cycling will only ever be perceived as a peripheral activity for eccentrics in the UK by yer average Joe.

given that cycling in my part of the world is seen as a completely normal activity, with bikes outnumbering cars on the main A3/A24/CS7 route in to London, I think my case can fairly put it's trainer shod feet up on the divan!

And this morning's cycling gear consists of emboidered shirt by Peter Werh, sleeveless pullover, jeans by Lee Cooper, Converse All-stars, a rather sweet bumfreezer jacket by All Saints, a delightful striped scarf bought for me by my dear lady wife, and a hat about which we will say nothing, because Adrian the Hat Nazi doesn't approve.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

What is a lycra Nazi?

a hat about which we will say nothing, because Adrian the Hat Nazi doesn't approve.

What is a hat Nazi?

 

[Glow worm]

given that cycling in my part of the world is seen as a completely normal activity, with bikes outnumbering cars on the main A3/A24/CS7 route in to London, I think my case can fairly put it's trainer shod feet up on the divan!

And this morning's cycling gear consists of emboidered shirt by Peter Werh, sleeveless pullover, jeans by Lee Cooper, Converse All-stars, a rather sweet bumfreezer jacket by All Saints, a delightful striped scarf bought for me by my dear lady wife, and a hat about which we will say nothing, because Adrian the Hat Nazi doesn't approve.

Do bikes really outnumber cars on the A3? I'm not doubting you but that does sound extraordinary. Assuming it is true, my question would be just who is riding those bikes? I bet its mainly boring middle aged blokes like me, confident in busy traffic and able to hold their own when bullied by drivers. How many kids, how many older folks popping to the shops?

Do your neighbours cycle, or the folks across the street? In my road, they think I'm nuts. (And that's before I get on the bike!) The fact is the Dutch and Scandinavian models work. They get folks of every demographic on their bikes and not just the boring middle aged duffers like me.

If its aesthetics you worry about, it seems a little harsh to pick on the Dutch suburb pictured above. Have you been to Dagenham, Blackbird Leys, Longbridge, Arbury or Stretford recently? (With all due respect to the good folks what live there). Frankly Most British big towns and cities are sh*tholes or have large areas that are tbh bloody awful. I can't see how a re-prioritisation of our streets in favour of bikes, peds and buses/ trams whatever and getting rid of a lot of motorised traffic can be a bad thing.

There's nothing to stop the boring blokes in all the gear continuing to hair down the A11 as if their arses were on fire- I've nowt against them and they're welcome to it. I'd value a network of safe off road routes that actually link up and go where you want to go and I'd love to see everyone using them. Not just the BMABs

And I won't ask who on earth Peter Werh is! (didn't he play for Leeds once?).

 

[dellzeqq]

Do bikes really outnumber cars on the A3? I'm not doubting you but that does sound extraordinary.

yes, and by quite a bit. In January. And, as Susie rightly points out, there are so many cyclists at rush hour that it's worth going early or late to avoid the crush. And they come in all sorts, although if I'm completely honest there are more men than women, there's a bias towards 20somethings and people of colour are under-represented.

Do your neighbours cycle, or the folks across the street? In my road, they think I'm nuts. (And that's before I get on the bike!) .

you said it. I reckon that as many bikes go up and down my street (a small side street used as a cut-through) as private cars

If its aesthetics you worry about, it seems a little harsh to pick on the Dutch suburb pictured above. Have you been to Dagenham, Blackbird Leys, Longbridge, Arbury or Stretford recently?

You've missed the point (or invented your own). I do not give a flying fark about the 'aesthetics'. I care about congeniality, and, with that in mind, it's not at all harsh to pick on the Dutch suburb because it has been consciously designed as an hommage to the Midwest in which contact and congeniality can be measured in minus numbers. See 'active frontages' above. And, if Dagenham and Blackbird Leys bother you then I suggest you go back - in both you'll see people shopping locally, going to church locally, walking to schools and bus stops, saying hello to their neighbours.

Frankly Most British big towns and cities are sh*tholes

you've clearly got a big problem. Cities are happy collisions of people, working, studying, taking their ease in a thousand different ways. Cities are the cradles of civilisation. Cities are the places you go to meet people that are different from yourself. Cities are where you find conversation.

I can't see how a re-prioritisation of our streets in favour of bikes, peds and buses/ trams whatever and getting rid of a lot of motorised traffic can be a bad thing.

nobody is arguing against a presumption in favour of public transport, bikes and pedestrians, and that you and the rest of the CEGB lot have the gall to suggest that we do, and, in doing so, call us 'lycra nazis' is testament to a dishonesty that, frankly, I despise.

I'd value a network of safe off road routes that actually link up and go where you want to go and I'd love to see everyone using them. Not just the BMABs[/quote]good - write to the DfT, your council and your MP. Tell you what - write and tell them that you blame the cyclists for people not cycling. They're bound to be impressed.

 

[Richard Mann]

London is a bit biased towards fast male middle-class white cyclists; yes.

Oxford however has the full range, and mostly using bike lanes on the main roads. 45% female; 90% middling-slow. That is because the traffic has been tamed enough that a wide range of people feel able to use the most direct roads. Mostly the kids use the back routes, but I'm even seeing some younger children on the main roads (8 yr olds on a 14,000mvpd main road!)

Incidentally, the high Dutch proportion of female cycling may be a bad sign: it means the men are driving.

 

[Glow worm]

It was George Wier (not Peter) I was thinking of and I'm sure he played for Leeds but not so apparently.

How do you do that multi quote thing?

And forgive my ignorance but who is 'Susie'? It sounds like your neighbourhood is great and don't want to get into any town vs country debates - each to their own I suppose. The 'people taking their ease' bit had me spitting coffee though- brilliant - v.funny! I'll remember that next time I step off the train with the scrum at King's Cross

You mis read several of my points. None of the places I mentioned bother me at all. I never said that they did. But who is to say the same 'going to church' etc doesn't hapen in Dutch suburbs too? Have you been to the place pictured? Sure the place looks pretty hideous, but at least the folks who live there can escape it safely and comfortably on a bike.

You completely mis understood my reference to lycra nazis. I dislike the term as much as anyone. If you re- read what I writ, I said I felt that that is how cyclists can be perceived by some of the non-cycling British public.

Stating that I'm blaming cyclists for people not cycling is frankly bizzare (and a bit funny). It's not black and white of course- I'd never say everything is great in the Netherlands and everything is crap here. I simply feel that on balance, they have have got things right more often than not. We seem quite often to have got many things wrong here.

 

[dellzeqq]

That's your opinion and that's fine of course. IMHO though, as long as we have attitudes like yours cycling will only ever be perceived as a peripheral activity for eccentrics in the UK by yer average Joe.

speaks for itself..........

 

[dellzeqq]

Style is available here .

????

 

[User169]

Have you been to the place pictured? Sure the place looks pretty hideous, but at least the folks who live there can escape it safely and comfortably on a bike.

I worked there for 2,5yrs. No-one actually lives there; it’s blocks of office space in the main. I would guess that most people travelling there would do so by car – most of my colleagues certainly did – notwithstanding all of the segregated lanes.

My own commute involves about 10m of segregated cycle lane and it’s the most dangerous part of the route by a considerable margin.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Dear lovely CEGB separate infrastructure types,

Stop blaming your existing fellow cyclists for the fact that non-cyclists don't cycle.
Stop denying that integrationists want traffic calming and traffic reduction.
Stop kidding yourselves that integrationists would not like a quality network of off-road cycle routes.

Start figuring out the costs of providing that infrastructure.
Start explaining how you will get it funded.
Start producing the drawings.

and please, please, please accept the political, social and cultural reality that the UK is NOT The Netherlands, or Denmark and is never going to be.

Regards

Greg

 

[Glow worm]

I worked there for 2,5yrs. No-one actually lives there; it’s blocks of office space in the main. I would guess that most people travelling there would do so by car – most of my colleagues certainly did – notwithstanding all of the segregated lanes.

You sure that wasn't Slough?!

[/quote] My own commute involves about 10m of segregated cycle lane and it’s the most dangerous part of the route by a considerable margin. [/quote]

Just out of interest - why is that bit so dodgy?

 

[Glow worm]

Dear lovely CEGB separate infrastructure types,

Stop blaming existing your fellow cyclists for the fact that non-cyclists don't cycle.
Stop denying that integrationists want traffic calming and traffic reduction.
Stop kidding yourselves that integrationists would not like a quality network of off-road cycle routes.

Start figuring out the costs of providing that infrastructure.
Start explaining how you will get it funded.
Start producing the drawings.

and please, please, please accept the political, social and cultural reality that the UK is NOT The Netherlands, or Denmark and is never going to be.

Regards

Greg

Deep breaths now, and...relax............