Organised rides (copied here by Admin from feedback thread)
- Thread starter dellzeqq
- Start date
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The Bromley and Lewisham group rides are decided at a once a month meeting between the said groups organisers and who ever anyone else who decided to come along and has a suggestion. It's not a closed shop, there is nothing to join as in the CTC. Anyone can suggest a ride, though not lead. Once a ride is agreed one of the leaders (who must be a member of LCC for obvious reasons) will then recce the ride to make sure it is suitable for a group ride. It is then listed on said organisitions site and also the LCC site. And of course on here and YACF.
On ride day once again it is very informal, there are no names taken, just a few instructions and introductions, you do not need to be member of any organisation. Usually maps are produced and given out by the group leader (who must be a member of the LCC) with an explanation of the route & any stops etc. Though most people have a good enough idea through the description, some times new riders to the group either find the ride too challenging or not challenging enough. One thing that is always stressed is that we go at the speed of the slowest rider and there is always a back marker. And if anyone needs a break or stop, then so be it. On the ride listings there are list's of what one is expected to take on a ride, spare inners, water, etc etc, but it still amazes me that people turn up with none then get a puncture or break a gear cable etc. We won't leave them behind of course, we try to fix the situation and stress that next time they come prepared. As to people racing off ahead, of course for some it is human nature to hare off ahead, it happens all the time, but anyone with any sense will stop at a junction and wait. As to Bonj's comment about him overtaking.. well so what if you do.. there's is no "Oi I am the leader", we are mostly adult's on these rides, common sense over all. If some one wants to be an arse then that's their perogative. If you feel that these friendly social group rides are too slow for you, then join a club. Our rides are for people with all cycling abilities, to join up, have a good chat and cycle with other friendly like minded people.
I think Auntie Helen & TwentyInch can attest how friendly and fun our rides can be.
On ride day once again it is very informal, there are no names taken, just a few instructions and introductions, you do not need to be member of any organisation. Usually maps are produced and given out by the group leader (who must be a member of the LCC) with an explanation of the route & any stops etc. Though most people have a good enough idea through the description, some times new riders to the group either find the ride too challenging or not challenging enough. One thing that is always stressed is that we go at the speed of the slowest rider and there is always a back marker. And if anyone needs a break or stop, then so be it. On the ride listings there are list's of what one is expected to take on a ride, spare inners, water, etc etc, but it still amazes me that people turn up with none then get a puncture or break a gear cable etc. We won't leave them behind of course, we try to fix the situation and stress that next time they come prepared. As to people racing off ahead, of course for some it is human nature to hare off ahead, it happens all the time, but anyone with any sense will stop at a junction and wait. As to Bonj's comment about him overtaking.. well so what if you do.. there's is no "Oi I am the leader", we are mostly adult's on these rides, common sense over all. If some one wants to be an arse then that's their perogative. If you feel that these friendly social group rides are too slow for you, then join a club. Our rides are for people with all cycling abilities, to join up, have a good chat and cycle with other friendly like minded people.
I think Auntie Helen & TwentyInch can attest how friendly and fun our rides can be.
Auntie Helen
Ich bin Powerfrau!
- Location
- 47906 Kempen, Germany
Yep, really friendly group, very welcoming and an informal feel and made the whole day very enjoyable. The organising hand, although clearly there, was a light one so it felt like a bunch of chums going for a little pootle about on the bike, not some scary überorganised target-driven thing. 'Tis my kind of ride, really.
srw
It's a bit more complicated than that...
Friendliness, alas, is not enough. Grieving relatives want compensation, and tetraplegics in wheelchairs want someone else to pay for the £100,000 a year their care costs them.
If you're organised and follow some simple rules someone else (the CTC's insurers or British Cycling's insurers or any other insurers you can find) will lift that potential risk and pass it to an insurance company.
And if there's one thing I've learnt about risk assessment it's that everyone (and I mean everyone) underestimates how likely remote events are to happen and how expensive they are when they do.
If you're organised and follow some simple rules someone else (the CTC's insurers or British Cycling's insurers or any other insurers you can find) will lift that potential risk and pass it to an insurance company.
And if there's one thing I've learnt about risk assessment it's that everyone (and I mean everyone) underestimates how likely remote events are to happen and how expensive they are when they do.
Do they? As one of y'learned friends I've never seen or heard of a reported case of anyone being sued as the 'organiser' of an informal ride on which someone is injured.dellzeqq said:
Just as people's lives are blighted by an irrational fear of crime, they are blighted even more by an irrational fear of litigation. Good sense definitely goes out of the window as soon as the Health and Safety Brigade pick up their clipboards.
I am struggling to think how an organiser of a ride can be sued for an accident. The rides are carefully recced before hand. Say the very unfortunate situation of rider getting seriously injured on a ride, perhaps by getting knocked down by a car or some farm equipment in a country lane or by falling off their bike. How would that person then go on to sue a ride a ride leader and for what? Surely if you are going on an organised ride then one must expect to use their own common sense and cycle in a safe and appropiate manner.
If a ride leader was to lead the group down a road that said no entry or danger and then someone got hurt then I can understand, but on a normal pootle along normal roads or lanes, unless there is negligence on the ride leaders part I fail to see how any court action can be taken.
Perhaps there are some learned people on here who can elighten me.
If a ride leader was to lead the group down a road that said no entry or danger and then someone got hurt then I can understand, but on a normal pootle along normal roads or lanes, unless there is negligence on the ride leaders part I fail to see how any court action can be taken.
Perhaps there are some learned people on here who can elighten me.
bonj said:
Naughty, ben.
dellzeqq said:
Thing is Simon, you're right in principle, of course, but so far I haven't seen any CC 'relaxed' / 'informal' / whatever ride organised where 40 people are marshalled to ride on dark roads. That seems to relate directly to your FNRttC, and I agree, the danger levels are higher, there are more people and it is good that there is another level of support / responsibility that people can have as peace of mind.
For the rides where about 10 people meet and ride for about 20-30 miles (maybe up to 50), doesn't this slightly bureaucratic element, with insurance and forms and 'rules', detract from the freedom of cycling, and in a way is a form of succumbing to the idea that cycling is always inherently dangerous?
srw
It's a bit more complicated than that...
ianrauk said:
All of what you say is absolutely well and dandy apart from this sentence. You are struggling to think how an organiser of a ride can be successfully sued for an accident. But being on the receiving end of an unsuccessful attempt is expensive, time-consuming and stressful.
the last case - mercifully unsuccessful - was this
http://news.scotsman.com/scotland/Cyclists-in-370000-court-clash.3723327.jp
and srw's has made the very point I wanted to make. Imagine being on the receiving end of that kind of action. No thanks.
It comes down to negligence. If you know the route, consider alternatives, assess the riders, keep an eye on them to make sure they're not overtired, or doing something daft, give warnings at junctions or hills, or blind curves then you're doing your job - in my view. You're entitled to disagree.
But........consider the pothole. This winter has been hard on the roads, and there holes that can have you off your bike, and, given that people riding in a bunch might not see the hole until too late. Now, you can ask people to point down, and shout 'hole' CTC stylee, and you can report holes to the council ahead of time, and you can even sneak out with a can of spray paint and mark the holes, but, to eliminate this particular risk you'd avoid the road entirely. Which might put you in the way of another risk.
I do go ride the route ahead of time, report holes, and mark them up. At the top of Reigate hill I give people a little homily about leaving a gap to the rider in front, not changing direction, and braking gently, and well ahead of time. None of this is a guarantee, and, for myself, I take comfort from having the backing of the CTC.
In answer to Radius's point. Most CTC rides simply take off from the start, and wander from cafe to cafe. There's no forms, and the only formality is a hello, nice to see you. If a new rider comes along, whether they're a member or not, then we keep an eye on them.
The FNRttC is at the extreme end of formality in that we take telephone numbers (which I use if somebody is not at the start at midnight, in order to check to see if they're still coming) and e-mail addresses (so that I can send out in the event of a cancellation) and you get my telephone number so that if you're running late to the start we can either wait or meet up somewhere en route. Other than that we have tail end charlies and wayfinders, and, generally, the regulars have each other's telephone numbers so that we can check on the length of the ride, or so that the TEC's can phone ahead if they're dealing with a mechanical. Now, as you say, this is all a bit much for ten people wandering round South London. That doesn't mean, however, that the person organising the ride is completely without liability.
I realise that this is going on a bit, so apologies all round, but...I have been on a BC club ride in which experienced cyclists and not so experienced cyclists were organised two across, rotating, at nineteen miles an hour. Few of the riders knew the road, and the interval was one length, if that, and less than half a metre across. This is part of a grand tradition of road cycling, and god bless them for continuing it. I thought better of going out for a second week.
http://news.scotsman.com/scotland/Cyclists-in-370000-court-clash.3723327.jp
and srw's has made the very point I wanted to make. Imagine being on the receiving end of that kind of action. No thanks.
It comes down to negligence. If you know the route, consider alternatives, assess the riders, keep an eye on them to make sure they're not overtired, or doing something daft, give warnings at junctions or hills, or blind curves then you're doing your job - in my view. You're entitled to disagree.
But........consider the pothole. This winter has been hard on the roads, and there holes that can have you off your bike, and, given that people riding in a bunch might not see the hole until too late. Now, you can ask people to point down, and shout 'hole' CTC stylee, and you can report holes to the council ahead of time, and you can even sneak out with a can of spray paint and mark the holes, but, to eliminate this particular risk you'd avoid the road entirely. Which might put you in the way of another risk.
I do go ride the route ahead of time, report holes, and mark them up. At the top of Reigate hill I give people a little homily about leaving a gap to the rider in front, not changing direction, and braking gently, and well ahead of time. None of this is a guarantee, and, for myself, I take comfort from having the backing of the CTC.
In answer to Radius's point. Most CTC rides simply take off from the start, and wander from cafe to cafe. There's no forms, and the only formality is a hello, nice to see you. If a new rider comes along, whether they're a member or not, then we keep an eye on them.
The FNRttC is at the extreme end of formality in that we take telephone numbers (which I use if somebody is not at the start at midnight, in order to check to see if they're still coming) and e-mail addresses (so that I can send out in the event of a cancellation) and you get my telephone number so that if you're running late to the start we can either wait or meet up somewhere en route. Other than that we have tail end charlies and wayfinders, and, generally, the regulars have each other's telephone numbers so that we can check on the length of the ride, or so that the TEC's can phone ahead if they're dealing with a mechanical. Now, as you say, this is all a bit much for ten people wandering round South London. That doesn't mean, however, that the person organising the ride is completely without liability.
I realise that this is going on a bit, so apologies all round, but...I have been on a BC club ride in which experienced cyclists and not so experienced cyclists were organised two across, rotating, at nineteen miles an hour. Few of the riders knew the road, and the interval was one length, if that, and less than half a metre across. This is part of a grand tradition of road cycling, and god bless them for continuing it. I thought better of going out for a second week.
srw
It's a bit more complicated than that...
ASC1951 said:
There was a case in Scotland last year. The complainant eventually lost, but that doesn't mean the next one will. And think how long it's taken for the courts to agree that Critical Mass is not an organised ride. If it looks like an organised ride someone, somewhere will try very hard to make it into an organised ride.
I'm not a learned friend, but I do see insurance claims. It is breath-taking how often a simple accident or a bit of stupidity on the part of someone will turn out to be someone else's fault.
To cite a specific case - A and B were both employed by X. A did something very stupid to B on work premises during a tea-break which resulted in B being seriously injured. It is X's employer's liability insurers who are having to defend the case.
And another specific case - A was engaged in his normal work activities, did something obviously stupid and was badly injured. Again, X, his employers, are defending the case.
It's a very small step from these cases to the nightmare scenario of a ride organiser being personally sued.
srw
It's a bit more complicated than that...
The way to avoid it is to join a club, to ride on your own or to go out in a fairly disorganised way with a bunch of people you know. It's only the development of cycling forums that's raised the spectre of litigation. Before them it was just too difficult to get together with a bunch of random strangers.
Hilldodger
Guru
- Location
- sunny Leicester
dodgy said:
Totally agree. Before long all organsers will have to insist that riders wear helmets and a hi viz. They'll probably have to have a man with a red flag walking in font of them, too.
Stop trying to destroy the simple pleasure of cycling with friends by scaremongering.
If you want to organise a ride through CC and feel it necessary to take out insurance, do risk assessments etc, then do so. However, do not set precidents that all members of this forum have to adhere too.
Hilldodger
Guru
- Location
- sunny Leicester
tdr1nka said:
I'd be VERY careful of the legal implicatons of doing this if you publish it.
Word it VERY carefully.
