Organised rides (copied here by Admin from feedback thread)

[dellzeqq]

The ad-hoc division seems to relate to the character of the rides, not their formality. Ian Rauk and I both advertise rides that are formal, in that they are club events, on the 'Events....' board. They're definitely going to happen, and they have the benefit of the insurances that the CTC and LCC offer to Rides Leaders. They're also very formal indeed in that they are group rides, with registered riders taking a degree of responsibility for others, and on roads that have been thoroughly checked out (I'm sure this is as true of Ian's rides as it is of the FNRttC). They would, however, sit uncomfortably with the Audax rides.

I'd steer clear of the word 'Informal', but I do think there is a general point to be made, and that is this. Rides that are simply organised on Cycle Chat, those not on any kind of club calendar, do not have any kind of insurance. Now, I'm asking people to join me on rides out to Kent. If somebody joins, and they get run over, and their grieving relatives believe that this is because I am negligent, then they might want my house in recompense. If someone is run over on an FNRttC then the relatives will doubtless look to the CTC's five or ten million pound insurance policy. That's something that those organising rides might want to think about, but also, and I mean this in a very positive way, they should consider the risks involved in the ride. I'm sure this happens to a great extent already (pace Steve's intro to the Herts ride) but I think that it does no harm to sound a little warning bell. The 'classified' section has a 'disclaimer'. In a more positive way the 'Events...' board might have a few words of advice about marrying routes to riders and so on....

Some of you have got to the bottom of the paragraph above and thought 'this is bollocks - nobody ever sues'. Well...they do, and once m'learned friends get on the case good sense goes out of the window. My main point, however, is that there is a fund of good advice on organising bike rides that can be drawn upon.

 

[bonj2]

FNRttC probably isn't classed as an organized ride because it's only organized by you.
If it was organized by somebody official like the audax company then it would probably be classed as a proper ride.

 

[TheDoctor]

'Audax company'??????

 

[dellzeqq]

the FNRttC is a CTC ride, bonj.

CTC rides, Audaxes, LCC rides and BC club rides are organised by volunteers, but benefit from rides leaders 3rd party insurance, and the body of knowledge and guidance that the CTC, Audax UK, LCC and BC have gained (and shared) over the years.

I do apologise to the 99% of you that knew that already.....

 

[bonj2]

the FNRttC is a CTC ride, bonj.

CTC rides, Audaxes, LCC rides and BC club rides are organised by volunteers, but benefit from rides leaders 3rd party insurance, and the body of knowledge and guidance that the CTC, Audax UK, LCC and BC have gained (and shared) over the years.

I do apologise to the 99% of you that knew that already.....

yeah but ctc's effectvely just an insurance/breakdown service.
It's effectively like going on an "RAC car-drive."

 

[bonj2]

don't you work for ctc anyway?
that means you could effectively call any ride you organize 'a ctc ride'.

I could call any ride that I go on "a CTC ride" because I'm insured with CTC for third party liability, doesn't necessarily mean it's an organized ride though. not like an audax

 

[oxbob]

don't you work for ctc anyway?
that means you could effectively call any ride you organize 'a ctc ride'.

I could call any ride that I go on "a CTC ride" because I'm insured with CTC for third party liability, doesn't necessarily mean it's an organized ride though. not like an audax

Oh dear bless his little lidl socks

 

[dellzeqq]

don't you work for ctc anyway?

no

I could call any ride that I go on "a CTC ride" because I'm insured with CTC for third party liability, doesn't necessarily mean it's an organized ride though. not like an audax

bonj - no you couldn't. A CTC ride is a ride that appears on the calendar or rides list of a CTC member group, and is lead by a CTC rides leader. The member group has to sanction the ride. The rides leader has to lead the ride in a certain way (I can send you our notes), on a route that he or she has researched, and that the member group is satisfied with.

And read my previous posts re recompense. If you've got any questions pm me - everybody else reading this thread knows the score. Give me your e-mail address and I'll send you a full description of the FNRttC.

 

[bonj2]

no

yeah, maybe not officially but but you're in the 'inner circle'.

bonj - no you couldn't.

Who's going to stop me? You?

A CTC ride is a ride that appears on the calendar or rides list of a CTC member group, and is lead by a CTC rides leader. The member group has to sanction the ride.

So you are in the inner circle! How else would you manage to get your ride on the "calendar"....

The rides leader has to lead the ride in a certain way

"The rides leader has to lead" ?!
What if there were faster cyclists on the ride that wanted to overtake, and did - such as would probably be the case if I went on one of your rides?
Would there be shouts of "OI! come back! I'M supposed to be the leader!"

And read my previous posts re recompense. If you've got any questions pm me - everybody else reading this thread knows the score. Give me your e-mail address and I'll send you a full description of the FNRttC.

ah so palms have to be greased. I see.

 

[Arch]

bonj, you'll excelling even yourself with twittery here...

 

[tdr1nka]

This is something Dell & I were talking over the other week with the intention of writing up a Do's & Don'ts for putting rides together.

I still have to get public liability insurance cover for taking kids and their bikes on the road during cycle training and this will cover me for other group rides too.

 

[punkypossum]

Call me thick, but I'm not sure I can quite get my head round this (admittedly, it's full of snot so that might be why). When does a ride advertised on this forum become an official ride then? What if someone says I'm riding from Rome to Paris over the weekend, anybody fancy coming along? How is this different to me saying to a friend I'm going on a bike ride to xyz, fancy coming? And if this happens, can said friend then sue me if they get run over by a tractor?

Sorry, but I'm confused...

 

[Arch]

Call me thick, but I'm not sure I can quite get my head round this (admittedly, it's full of snot so that might be why). When does a ride advertised on this forum become an official ride then? What if someone says I'm riding from Rome to Paris over the weekend, anybody fancy coming along? How is this different to me saying to a friend I'm going on a bike ride to xyz, fancy coming? And if this happens, can said friend then sue me if they get run over by a tractor?

Sorry, but I'm confused...

I think confusion is part of the problem - or perhaps it's more the fear of confusion. Once upon a time, it was probably obvious that if you join some mates for a ride, that's all it is. These days, with the fear of litigation and so on, and the general decline in common sense, there's more worry that people who don't have common sense might assume that something informal was in fact 'official' and that someone ought to be blamed for something going wrong.

I woud assume that something organised under the auspices of an official organisation (CTC etc) or a company (like the Company of Cyclists holidays), or perhaps by a charity (the london to brighton, etc) was 'official', and therefore had liability insurance and so on, and something set up by a forummer along the lines of "I'm going for a ride, come along if you like" was unofficial and is a case of 'it's your risk'.

There's probably also an aspect of how many 'novices' are likely to come along. Folk who join a forum ride are likely to either be experienced or at least keen to develop (I don't mean just in terms of fitness, but in road craft, group riding skills). Some official type rides, esp the charity ones, are maybe more likely to attract people who don't know their limitations, or aren't considerate riders (see all the remarks about people walking all over the road going up Ditchling Beacon, blocking the path of those trying to ride up). That sort of thing maybe causes more accidents.

It does seem to be a minefield, unfortunately - and it's partly down to growth - two mates going out on a ride is one thing, because you know each other, but once a group gets to a certain size, even if it's still informal, you are more likely to find the organiser 'in charge' of people they don't really know - so trust becomes more difficult.

Note for Bonj. A 'leader' can lead from anywhere in the group - provided anyone who shoots off ahead either knows the route, or waits at junctions. I led a ride once on a holiday where two people insisted on blasting off ahead, and kept having to do u turns and come back because they just rode past turnings. Everyone else just stayed bunched around me, and was fine, even if I wasn't out front the whole time. They just needed to be able to hear me call out "next left!" and so on.

Ideally, you'll have someone at the back too, to make sure no-one gets dropped.

 

[dellzeqq]

bonj - you're beyond reason. If you don't know, ask.

 

[dellzeqq]

Re: dellzeqq's posts here.

Will the London CC Rides (I mention them specifically as being someone who attends them and will be leading one in November) now have to become more "formal" so that those riding and leading will have to have insurance?

And where does this place the status of those impromptu rides such as djtheglove's ride around Bromley that a few of us went on?

The aim is to be accessible and easy to attend. However citing Insurance, forms etc may make them off-putting for the new or occasional rider.

Is there a suitable solution to this?

It depends if it worries you. Going down to Sandwich with three others is fine and dandy as far as I'm concerned, but marshalling forty people on dark roads is a different thing entirely. You have to find your own comfort level.

If you thought that you would like to get the cover, then there there is a solution, but it takes a bit of work. Any CTC section that I know of, and I'm sure that this is true of LCC branches as well, would be only too willing to accommodate CC rides in the calendar. The proviso in the case of the CTC ride is that the person leading (in practice the organiser) becomes a Rides Leader. That's not too difficult - in the case of the Cheam and Morden you simply give me your CTC number, we have a bit of a chat, and I get you on the list. Non-members are welcome on CTC rides, although if they make a habit of it they do get pressed to join.

And then there is a further possibility. Set CC up as a nationwide member group of the CTC, with its own Rides Leaders list. The CTC has cottoned on to the idea that people don't organise their social lives the way they did twenty years ago. CC has, in effect, a rides list that is published. It doesn't need to have officers and all that mullarkey if it simply attaches itself to an established group. The corollary would be that you'd expect some kind of recognition from the CTC which does send out e-mails to 20,000 people every week.

I'd be interested to see Ian Rauk's take on this...