Store loyalty card - odd goings on (now a reply from store)

[Milkfloat]

[QUOTE 4496690, member: 76"]

It's not a major fraud, it's a silly thing you have done IMO. Referring to your earlier post, what made you think that your card had been cloned too? That is a bonkers assumption. Someone was just making sure the silly loyalty points you earned didn't go to waste, you have hugely over-reacted.

When Sainsburys do their Sports vouchers do you make sure the cashier isn't keeping any unclaimed ones back for their kids school too?[/QUOTE]

Fraud is fraud - if you knew that someone was shoplifting would you turn a blind eye, what about if you knew that employees were stealing TVs from the store is that also OK? The employee is not making sure the points don't go to waste, they are defrauding their employer.

 

[marinyork]

Misuse of loyalty card is regarded as a serious matter by retailers. It doesn't need to be called theft or fraud or anything else to be fired. It just need to follow employment law principles.

Moreover customers didn't use to twig why I couldn't add loyalty points when a voucher was apparently correct and couldn't be inputted. The reason is precisely the area we are talking about on this thread.

 

[Milkfloat]

[QUOTE 4496856, member: 76"]Shoplifting isn't fraud though, it's theft. Are you sat there, with a straight face, comparing scanning some loyalty points to stealing a succession of TVs?

I don't think they are defrauding their employer. The shop was already giving away the points, it is that when @Sore Thumb didn't want them, someone else took them (and obviously we are all assuming that is what happened), like the Sainsburys vouchers, I don't want them, I give them to the young parent in the queue behind me, have I defrauded Sainsburys by not using them myself, no of course not.

We are also missing the other option, maybe the store manager gives everyone a card at the start of the shift and says "everyone round me up my points, any of you f*****s don't, or gets caught, I will make sure you are fired" Now the cashier has got caught and is a world of hurt. Or maybe they have a few buckshee cards around, because Brian just died of cancer and his widow Nora needs a new shed, and this is how they all intend to pay for it. Or anything else, now though @Sore Thumb has raised the prospect of fraud with the shop manager, so someone must pay.

[/QUOTE]

It is exactly the same as stealing a succession of TVs - he could obtain tens of TVs with the points accumulated over time, is this still harmless.

Regarding your point over giving vouchers to the parent behind you. Assuming the store has given them to you and the terms and conditions allow you to pass them on to other people then no you have not defrauded Sainsbury. However, if you worked there and took vouchers that you are not allowed then again this is fraud.

As for your other options that they are doing this under duress, each firm will have ways of reporting this. When I worked a till, if a manager had told me to do that I would refuse as I hope most other people will. And as for poor Nora - tough it is still fraud.

 

[nickyboy]

It is exactly the same as stealing a succession of TVs - he could obtain tens of TVs with the points accumulated over time, is this still harmless.

Regarding your point over giving vouchers to the parent behind you. Assuming the store has given them to you and the terms and conditions allow you to pass them on to other people then no you have not defrauded Sainsbury. However, if you worked there and took vouchers that you are not allowed then again this is fraud.

As for your other options that they are doing this under duress, each firm will have ways of reporting this. When I worked a till, if a manager had told me to do that I would refuse as I hope most other people will. And as for poor Nora - tough it is still fraud.

I don't think anyone is suggesting it is not fraud in the strict legal sense.

The interesting aspect of this thread is whether, having witnessed it, you choose to do something about it or not. As previously mentioned, I'm firmly in the "no" camp. There are enough interfering busybodies already in this world without me adding to the number

 

[lutonloony]

Amazed we're up to 11 pages, 7 of which seem to have said the same thing.

 

[srw]

I don't think anyone is suggesting it is not fraud in the strict legal sense.

The interesting aspect of this thread is whether, having witnessed it, you choose to do something about it or not. As previously mentioned, I'm firmly in the "no" camp. There are enough interfering busybodies already in this world without me adding to the number

Reporting fraud isn't being an interfering busybody, it's part of being a citizen.

 

[nickyboy]

Reporting fraud isn't being an interfering busybody, it's part of being a citizen.

Depends on circumstances. In this one, it is trivial in the extreme but there are serious ramifications if the perpetrator is identified. Anyone reporting this needs to consider his priorities

 

[Sore Thumb]

Depends on circumstances. In this one, it is trivial in the extreme but there are serious ramifications if the perpetrator is identified. Anyone reporting this needs to consider his priorities

You know what is similar to what you have said.

Is the way motorists think of cyclists and when they give a close pass. Well I did not hit them so what's the problem, these cyclists really need to consider their priorities.

And by a cyclist reporting a close pass that has not caused an injury, could have serious ramifications on the law abiding motorist and is just trivial in the extreme.


And you know what, a lot of motorists do actually have this mindset.

 

[jefmcg]

I could have just gone to the police

I wish you had, that would have been interesting.
- you are reporting that someone stole your loyalty points?
* no, I don't collect points
- then what crime are you reporting?
* the staff member is stealing points from the shop
- it would be up to the shop to press charges in that case
* I'm also worried my card might have been cloned
- did it leave your hands or go out of sight at any point? Have you noticed any suspicious transactions on your card?
* no and no

 

[Sore Thumb]

I wish you had, that would have been interesting.
- you are reporting that someone stole your loyalty points?
* no, I don't collect points
- then what crime are you reporting?
* the staff member is stealing points from the shop
- it would be up to the shop to press charges in that case
* I'm also worried my card might have been cloned
- did it leave your hands or go out of sight at any point? Have you noticed any suspicious transactions on your card?
* no and no

So legally it's not fraud then?
*errr maybe ok it is

And your last question, how do you know what happened with my card, are you just guessing?
*Yes

And your point is?
* to point score

 

[jefmcg]

I don't want any personal info.

I though it would be nice to know the outcome. Spoken to/warning/disaplinary/no action needed/ etc.

Why? You are not the victim here, you are a disinterested party. If you told a cashier you saw someone slip something into their bag, would you expect to store to update you about the shoplifting prosecution? Of course not, unless you are called as a witness. Similarly, you may have seen a cashier committing fraud, but that doesn't give you any more rights than any other member of the public to hear the outcome.

 

[Sore Thumb]

Why? You are not the victim here, you are a disinterested party. If you told a cashier you saw someone slip something into their bag, would you expect to store to update you about the shoplifting prosecution? Of course not, unless you are called as a witness. Similarly, you may have seen a cashier committing fraud, but that doesn't give you any more rights than any other member of the public to hear the outcome.

*and?

 

[Sore Thumb]

[QUOTE 4497321, member: 76"]How come you didn't have concerns about card cloning until page 9 (post 124)?[/QUOTE]



You tell me.

 

[jefmcg]

So legally it's not fraud then?
*errr maybe ok it is

And your last question, how do you know what happened with my card, are you just guessing?
*Yes

And your point is?
* to point score

You don't have nearly enough evidence to know if it's fraud or not. Nothing you witnessed is a prima facie crime. It requires information only the store would have to know it's fraud. So the police would tell you to do what you did : tell the store. Then if they see it as fraud and chose to press charges, they can bring it to the police.

 

[jefmcg]

And your last question, how do you know what happened with my card, are you just guessing?

I assumed if the card had left your sight, you would have mentioned it.

Did it?