The CycleChat Helmet Debate Thread

[swansonj]

...

Oh, and one more thing. You're right in that a helmet will behave differently when it's worn. Unsupported, it'll bend under an applied load, thereby distributing that load across a greater area. Supported, the skull beneath will prevent much of that bending. Any load will remain a point load. Ideally, you'd have a very stiff but ductile outer shell to distribute any impact loads across more ot the helmet (aluminium would probably make a reasonable job of it). Unfortunately, the polycarbonate that is actually used is far too brittle and lacks stiffness to be effective.

But it is, I think, plausible that the unsupported hat, being more likely to bend, is then also more likely to crack and split, whereas a supported helmet is less able to bend and therefore more likely to compress?

Why do so many helmets split? A naive view would say a point load against the skull should lead to compression not flexing. Is it because they don't fit the head well enough?

 

[srw]

A helmet can prevent that though?

Probably - but it would need to be made of the right stuff.

 

[srw]

This is just nonsense.

I'm glad it wasn't just me. If I remember correctly from a few years ago, when the risks of embolism became all too real, the brain doesn't have the blood vessel structures to create an embolism. In fact I believe that the brain is far more at risk from embolisms from elsewhere than vice versa. And the nature of embolism is that it takes hours to travel to where it does the damage.

 

[srw]

Here's something for all you Dr Kildares out there.....

http://ceaccp.oxfordjournals.org/content/12/2/67.full

Key points:

Cardiovascular complications are common after brain injury and associated with increased morbidity and mortality.1,2 The spectrum of abnormalities includes hypertension, hypotension, ECG changes, cardiac arrhythmias, release of biomarkers of cardiac injury, and left ventricular (LV) dysfunction. The abnormalities are usually reversible and management should therefore focus on general supportive care and on treatment of the underlying brain injury.

Nothing, you'll notice, about cardiac arrest. Lots about chronic and treatable conditions.

 

[benb]

It's more to do with the fact that the guys whack to the head caused him to get into such a state of unconsciousness, that the inevitable cardiac arrest ( not heart attack, they are different things), although a heart attack often leads to a cardiac arrest, occurred. When you are properly unconcious for any significant length of time, you will need CPR fairly quickly. The cardiac arrest part, is the inevitable consequence of a proper spark out.

You need to search more "diligently" even your "diligent searching" on head whacks causing heart attacks failed to turn up countless cases of people developing blood clots, as a consequence, which travel to the heart's blood vessels, and cause an actual heart attack, which may or may not ( but often does ) lead to cardiac arrest. Heart attacks don't always lead to cardiac arrests, if you spot the symptoms of the heart attack early enough, and act on it, the cardiac arrest can often be avoided. There's so much else wrong with what you typed, I would need about a week to address it all. I can't be bothered. I would suggest that you go and get some first aid qualifications, then come back, when you've got more of a clue. Even the basic 3 hour EFAW etc. course would do.

Sorry, but this is completely wrong.
Might I suggest you refrain from pretending to be an expert in fields of which you clearly have little knowledge?

 

[benb]

Had a conversation with one of my mothers friends yesterday, she was telling me about a club comrade of her son in law (still with me?) he apparently had a collision with a Deer. He wasn't wearing a helmet and has suffered quite severe head injuries. The general jist was that clearly a helmet would have helped him. I found myself explaining that helmets are quite thin and weak and in certain countries the incidence of head injuries hasn't dropped with the compulsive use of helmets, my mothers friend had to agree and was surprised.
A helmet may have helped him, who knows, I just felt I had to balance the argument. What's happening to me ?

I still "mostly" wear my own helmet by the way .

I'm proud of you.

 

[EnPassant]

Happened to notice that the boxers at the Olympics were not wearing head guards this time around.
Wondered why, and looked it up. Seems the IOC have ratified a 2013 AIBA decision to cease their use based on data that suggests they do more harm than good. Or rather that they don't help prevent concussion but do help prevent minor cuts and abrasions which in terms of severity and danger to long term health may be said to be the same thing.

See here, amongst other sources.

From that link: "One was that the head guards created a bigger target for boxers, who in turn attempted more head blows. The other was that the gear was giving boxers a false sense of security."

Eerily familiar points albeit with regard to totally different head protective equipment used in a different environment.

Also eerily familiar is that the argument rages on.

 

[Racing roadkill]

(and perhaps have a clue what you're talking about)...


.

Steady on, you're about to induce Ventricular Fibrillation in me. Now that could very well result in a Cardiac arrest.

I'm a paramedic trained First aider B.T.W. With many years of first hand, front line experience, but don't let that get in the way of you attempting to troll.

 

[mjr]

Put something inside the helmet before you hit it, I used yep you guessed it a melon.

I used a large wooden ball. I've moved house since and haven't yet found anything readily-available to replicate it. I'm not keen on melons because I agree with @Pat "5mph": they seem too damn soft and likely to cushion impacts more than a head. Maybe a wooden ball didn't cushion the impact enough, but the imitation head isn't really meant to be protecting the hat. What would people suggest?

A series of interesting posts arising from this has been deleted. Just in case it stays deleted rather than gets moved, as I've asked, I'll pop in to say that I looked to see whether I could find evidence that a head injury can cause a heart attack.

And I still hope that I don't faint near RR's group if they're going to administer CPR to anyone unconscious!

I've got an my old MET at work, I've had it knocked off bikes a few times without damage, will drop it from 2m and see what happens.

Any helmet dropped from 1/2 meter with bits falling off is not fit for purpose imho..

I've had a helmet dent when it fell a short distance from my bag onto a stone. There's two huge problems exemplified by this: firstly, helmets are no longer tested against a stone-like anvil (Snell B-90 did but later standards don't); secondly, there's a risk of cracks and other damage you can't easily see, either from your use or even in pre-sale transport, so how can you tell whether your helmet is defective before it's too late?

Tidied up and being visually impaired placed it on a ceramic hob that was being used to cook supper

I think you missed some @Fnaar-esque innuendo.

 

[EnPassant]

Up to a point. Head blows are an intended aspect of boxing.

Well quite, I did say differing protection and environment.

However one aspect of that is that if they are not now being used in an environment where head blows are expected, in fact even an aim, then that possibly makes the argument for the use of similar equipment where a head blow is not expected and in fact quite unlikely even more suspect.

I do accept, and have pointed out that the construction is different and the type of impact also not likely to be the same.
I simply found the similarity of argument and the compulsion (and its subsequent retraction) interesting.

 

[deptfordmarmoset]

That you go to a butcher's and get a pig's head.

What would he do with the old one?

 

[glasgowcyclist]

That you go to a butcher's and get a pig's head.

I once asked my butcher if he had a sheep's head and he said, "No, it's just the way I part my hair".

GC

 

[Big Andy]

That you go to a butcher's and get a pig's head.

Nooooo! Don't do that, there's enough pig headedness on both sides of this debate already!!

 

[benb]

Happened to notice that the boxers at the Olympics were not wearing head guards this time around.
Wondered why, and looked it up. Seems the IOC have ratified a 2013 AIBA decision to cease their use based on data that suggests they do more harm than good. Or rather that they don't help prevent concussion but do help prevent minor cuts and abrasions which in terms of severity and danger to long term health may be said to be the same thing.

See here, amongst other sources.

From that link: "One was that the head guards created a bigger target for boxers, who in turn attempted more head blows. The other was that the gear was giving boxers a false sense of security."

Eerily familiar points albeit with regard to totally different head protective equipment used in a different environment.

Also eerily familiar is that the argument rages on.

If they really want to make boxing safer, they'd get rid of boxing gloves and go back to bare-knuckles.

 

[Racing roadkill]

And yet you don't seem to have a clue what you're talking about - and it's not just me saying that.



BTW, I'm a qualified first aider and have been for since the age of 10 (I was brought up in a country where it was a compulsory part of the school curriculum). I am also a qualified 'First Aid at Work' first aider . As for "first hand, front line experience", given I spent quite some time working in conflict zones as well as being a volunteer with the British Red Cross, I think it could be amusing to compare experiences - but somewhat irrelevant to the thread.

Oh I forgot to mention I'm part of the resuscitation council, jog on, there's a good chap.