11sp Mech Ultegra or New 12sp Ultegra Di2

[cougie uk]

Because if the taxman finds out, he could be in the doo-doo.

To be allowed as a tax-free benefit, the bike must be used at least 50% for commuting. That is why it is called the "cycle to work scheme.

I think the tax man has plenty on his plate without standing on a street corner to make sure you are cycling to work. I'd encourage anyone to cycle rather than drive to work so at least this person has the possibility of riding in.

 

[Cycleops]

I'm going to make a bet that Eddy never said that. Given that for a significant part of his life he was in the business of selling upgades!

And him being Belgian makes him a bit unlikely to make a clever-clever English pun, using an American term for hills.

Doesn't make it any less true though

HG Wells never uttered the quote in my signature, he was a very keen cyclist though.

 

[vickster]

I think the tax man has plenty on his plate without standing on a street corner to make sure you are cycling to work. I'd encourage anyone to cycle rather than drive to work so at least this person has the possibility of riding in.

He does already have a bike that could be used to commute

 

[cougie uk]

He does already have a bike that could be used to commute

I'd rather someone buys an extra bike than uses the tax benefits to drive one of those huuuuuuuuuuge pickup trucks that apparently are very attractive as a company car.

My blooming company didnt run a C2W scheme until I blooming left. Annoying !

 

[wafter]

Stepping back from the particulars of your situation, as a self-confessed luddite I believe that electronics have no place in fundamental / essential applications on the triumph of mechanical engineering that is the bicycle.

You mention future-proofing, however Shimano's groupsets still contain 8sp offerings at their bottom end so it'll be a long, long time before getting hold of 11sp parts will be an issue.

If the bike is to be used for (very posh!) commuting there might also be an argument for all-weather reliability (one way or the other - if properly waterproofed the electronics might be more reliable than a cable-actuated system).

As has already been mentioned cost is potentially also an issue if you'll be piling the miles on (especially in less-than-favourable conditions that will serve to reduce component life).

Tbh in your situation I'd definitely being going mech, and really would probably be looking at something with 105 as it's a lot cheaper compared to Ultegra and arguably much more suited to daily duties..

If you're not going to use it for commuting then really it comes down to your own proclivities - it's often unwise to be a first adoptor of new tech but Shimano (being typically Japanese) usually seem to get it right first time having properly done their homework..

 

[PaulSB]

If you want it and can afford it then buy it.

My view would be friends tell me Di2 is great for climbing but makes no real difference on the flat. I have friends whose bikes have been off the road for 8-10 days when Di2 fails. My LBS will fix a shifting issue on mechanical in less than an hour.

On 25-50 mile rides I see no benefit other than the pleasure of having Di2. Only you can decide if that is worth the cash.

Personally I can afford Di2 but wouldn't buy it. I don't want my bike in dock for a week while problems are being sorted out.

 

[Nebulous]

I specced my new bike with 11 speed Di2, because I can. Also on very long rides my hand struggles with gear changes - at times I've needed to use two hands and I'm hoping going electronic will fix that. Most people I've spoken to who have it really like it, but then the same applies to anything expensive, if you've heavily invested in it you are reluctant to admit it isn't good.

Shortly after I ordered it 12 speed Di2 came out and I asked about changing. I was told it would mean waiting until May or June next year. I'm planning a big ride in August and didn't think that gave me enough time to set the bike up, particularly if it was delayed. May / June may well be optimistic given the supply chain issues.

 

[IanSmithCSE]

Good morning,

.....is it worth paying the extra for Di2 to future proof.....

I have 10 speed Di2 and I think that it is wonderful, but on the idea of future proofing;

• When Shimano went from the original Dura-Ace Di2 to the 2nd generation Di2 they changed the system entirely, parts weren't interchangeable.
• !0 Speed Di2 Ultegra had a relatively short production life, so new spare parts were/are hard to get.
• 11 Speed Di2 Ultegra was quickly updated so that front and rear mechs could provide device IDs to the firmware leading to the gears refusing to operate if Shimano didn't like the combination, for example you can't use a 10 Speed front mech with most 11 Speed rear mechs.
  • This ability could see 12 Speed Ultegra Version 1 being incompatible with Version 2 if they come up with some wonderful idea.
  • The impression I got was that this was done to ensure that everything works perfectly and anyone who can afford Di2 won't mind too much.
• With Shimano apparently using Di2 as the differentiator between Ultegra and 105 I would be cautious about the price of consumables, chains and cassettes, if this matters to you as there is less need to discount Ultegra as it is pretty much the same as 105.

The thing about the tax man not caring is that it is always a risky thing as Salary Sacrifice Schemes have to be declared, so it is easy for HMRC to query the relevant databases and look for large sacrifices which probably meaning expensive bikes not being used for commuting.

Along with the fact that blatant tax fraud is not something to be proud of, and there is the risk of change in accountant meaning a change in policy, we no longer turn a blind eye to any misuse of the scheme.

Bye

Ian

 

[fossyant]

What's your mechanical knowledge like. I'd be a bit wary spending so much if you know so little = big bike shop bills.

 

[vickster]

If you think you may need help in getting the set up right, buy local not mail order even if it costs a bit more, as the expertise and support will be worth it

 

[T4tomo]

In the grand scheme of things, given Shimano's intention to kill off Ultegra mechanical in a year or two, is it worth paying the
extra for Di2 to future proof.

Don't buy Di2 as a future proof, as Shimnao will tinker with the next "upgrade" of Di2 and chances are it wont be compatible anyway - see post #23.

there is definitely some value in having both your bikes (assuming you are keeping the other) with compatible group sets, i.e. 11 sp shimano disc brakes, so you keep one stock of consumables like chains and cassettes and you can swap wheelsets between bikes at will.

on the other hand if you really want the latest Di2 on your new bike, then go for it if you tink its worth he extra cost and the extra replacement costs of consumables like cassettes & chains etc

 

[PaulSB]

Good morning,

I have 10 speed Di2 and I think that it is wonderful, but on the idea of future proofing;

• When Shimano went from the original Dura-Ace Di2 to the 2nd generation Di2 they changed the system entirely, parts weren't interchangeable.
• !0 Speed Di2 Ultegra had a relatively short production life, so new spare parts were/are hard to get.
• 11 Speed Di2 Ultegra was quickly updated so that front and rear mechs could provide device IDs to the firmware leading to the gears refusing to operate if Shimano didn't like the combination, for example you can't use a 10 Speed front mech with most 11 Speed rear mechs.
  • This ability could see 12 Speed Ultegra Version 1 being incompatible with Version 2 if they come up with some wonderful idea.
  • The impression I got was that this was done to ensure that everything works perfectly and anyone who can afford Di2 won't mind too much.
• With Shimano apparently using Di2 as the differentiator between Ultegra and 105 I would be cautious about the price of consumables, chains and cassettes, if this matters to you as there is less need to discount Ultegra as it is pretty much the same as 105.

The thing about the tax man not caring is that it is always a risky thing as Salary Sacrifice Schemes have to be declared, so it is easy for HMRC to query the relevant databases and look for large sacrifices which probably meaning expensive bikes not being used for commuting.

Along with the fact that blatant tax fraud is not something to be proud of, and there is the risk of change in accountant meaning a change in policy, we no longer turn a blind eye to any misuse of the scheme.

Bye

Ian

Reading this confirms to me why I will not be buying Di2 even though I can afford it. We have built-in obsolescence in many of our electronic devices these days to start doing it to bikes is outrageous.

As for the tax fraud? Well yes it is but the the whole C2W scheme is unfair to many cyclists so I guess if people play the system it's because the system allows it.

I have never understood why some cyclists, many who don't commute, should be offered discounts not available to others.

I recall asking the owner of the business I worked for if we could join C2W. He looked at me and said "You don't cycle to work." He was right.

 

[VeloBoi]

Thanks for your responses, given me a lot to think about. To add, the intention would be to commute the two days week I work on site for 7 months of the year from April - October.

After reading the comments and reflecting rationally on my need, I think the mechanical ultegra (maybe 105) would be most suited for my riding.
I have no interest in electronic shifting and don't believe it would bring any tangible improvement to my riding experience, my reason for exploring the di2 was purely for future proofing. Coupled with replacement cost of consumables for di2, which, given regular commute and weekend riding, not sure in my position electronic shifting makes sense.

 

[Cavalol]

If you want it and can afford it then buy it.

Nail on head. YOLO, and all that.

 

[IanSmithCSE]

Good morning,

Reading this confirms to me why I will not be buying Di2 even though I can afford it. We have built-in obsolescence in many of our electronic devices these days to start doing it to bikes is outrageous.....

I actually have some sympathy with Shimano on this as Di2 has automatic shifting capability and no ability to micro-adjust on a gear by gear basis. Even my old 10 speed adjusts the front mech when moving from the 6th smallest sprocket the 5th and as Di2 is sold as being "wonderful" the idea of having to maintain the firmware and still possibly compromise its small gains or major features that allowing mismatching parts might cause seems to be wrong.

As Di2 is so far from necessary that this seems a reasonable path to choose. I have done about 6k miles this year on 8 speed Claris, which as 50/34 11-32 is in reality a 1x7. What does surprise me is the quality of the Claris brake lever, it feels far better made than the Shimano 600 (tricolour) on the bike that it replaced, it may be that this is necessary because of the forces applied sideways that are not present on non STI shifters.

Whilst I could never make an argument to say that Ultegra Di2 is worth the extra money once I got used to it Di2 is to mechanical STI the same as mechanical STI is to downtube shifting and I only abandoned downtube shifters this year as they still work pretty well on 8 speed.

But if I could invent an 8/9 Speed Tiagra Di2 drivetrain at say £100 more than 105 I suspect that it would take the market by storm as cost is important for most people and Di2 has always forced the customer into at least Ultegra which is already a big price hit. For some reason you tend not to see and Ultegra Di2 drive train matched to Tektro brakes, Sora hubs and rims from Poundland.

Somehow the cycling culture has "said" £1k wheels are entry level but Di2 is for the more money than sense brigade.



Bye


Ian