20mph Speed Limits

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dawesome

Senior Member
If you routinely exceed the speed limit, then you do.



Spectacularly missing the point. Regardless of the primary cause of an accident, increased speed will make any accident more likely, and will make any accident more severe.
And as your judgement is so poor in this area, I would question how good it is in others.

Basically, what you're saying is that shaving some time off your journey is more important than other road users safety.

I think Parrot's argument is more:

"I speed and have never crashed, therefore speeding is ok"

This is a common argument among the pro-speeding lobby, and as I said it completely ignores the fact that THERE DOESN'T HAVE TO BE AN ACCIDENT FOR SPEEDING TO BE ANTI-SOCIAL.

Sorry for shouting, but that argument as an example of wilful self-delusion is an absolute doozy.
 

dellzeqq

pre-talced and mighty
Location
SW2
Come again?
you're wasting your time......
 

dawesome

Senior Member
Again, you remove my comments from their proper context and create a non-existent argument. I really wouldn't waste your time dawesome.

My attitude has kept me and everyone around me safe and sound for many years. I view speed limit signs as a guide to what is generally considered to be a maximum safe speed, but nothing more. If you've any experience driving then you'll understand that many speed limits are now set not on technical grounds, but on political grounds.



You claimed speed limits were set "on political grounds", then denied that politicians were involved in setting speed limits.
 

dellzeqq

pre-talced and mighty
Location
SW2
Again, you remove my comments from their proper context and create a non-existent argument. I really wouldn't waste your time dawesome.
it isn't a question of context - you're telling us that you speed, which is wrong. Just don't do it. And there's nothing wrong with speed limits being set for political reasons - people are entitled not to feel menaced by drivers like you, and politicians are right to legislate for that entitlement

I think it behoves us all to keep to the 20mph limit. I reckon there's an opportunity here. Ben could hire himself out to BSO riders who could loop a bungee strap round his seatpost, and, thusly, both could travel at twenty. The BSOiste gets to work on time and pays Ben a mite for his trouble. All arranged via CC which picks up a 10% arrangement fee.
 

Parrot of Doom

New Member
If you routinely exceed the speed limit, then you do.

In which case every single emergency vehicle drives dangerously. It's a nonsense statement of course, and obviously I don't have the same experience or qualifications as a driver of an emergency vehicle, but it is entirely possible to exceed the posted limit and still drive safely. The fact that many, many limits in this country have been reduced does not suddenly make people who still drive on those affected roads at speeds once considered acceptable, "dangerous".

Spectacularly missing the point. Regardless of the primary cause of an accident, increased speed will make any accident more likely, and will make any accident more severe.
And as your judgement is so poor in this area, I would question how good it is in others.

So your solution is to focus not on the primary contributory factor in any accident, but on secondary factors? I'm afraid then that we'll never agree on this. You have your point of view, I respect that, but it's one I don't share.

Basically, what you're saying is that shaving some time off your journey is more important than other road users safety.

No, I have never said or implied any such thing. I drive always at a speed appropriate for the prevailing conditions. That always takes precedence over my projected time of arrival.


I love how anyone here who proffers an opinion not quite in keeping with what's normally expected becomes open to abuse based on nothing more than conjecture. What a charming community.
 

mangaman

Guest
I think Parrot's argument is more:

"I speed and have never crashed, therefore speeding is ok"

He admits to constant speeding but thinks it's safe and denied ever crashing

Except he's now admitted to crashing "a few times" in his 20 years of driving.

He dismisses them as they were at low speed and just caused some denting and scratching.

And he doesn't seem to see the contradiction within the above.

Of course you would automatically fail the IAM test if you broke the posted limit as a cursory glance at their website shows
 

pshore

Well-Known Member
My attitude has kept me and everyone around me safe and sound for many years. I view speed limit signs as a guide to what is generally considered to be a maximum safe speed, but nothing more. If you've any experience driving then you'll understand that many speed limits are now set not on technical grounds, but on political grounds. A road near me, the A6144 (formerly A6144(M)) is a case in point.

You probably now think I drive around with my foot pressed to the floor everywhere I go, but you couldn't be further from the truth.


If you're one of those people who believe that speed is the most important factor in the determination of safe driving, then I can only say you're ignorant. And I don't mean that to be an insult. Do yourself a favour, go and read Roadcraft. There are many, many aspects to safe driving, and speed is one of the least significant.


I know where you are coming from Parrot but I cannot support your view. I have read Roadcraft, Motorcycle Roadcraft and Cyclecraft I am definitely a better more observant rider for it, minimising risk to me and others around me. However, there are important points missing from your argument.

Unexpected things happen. When they do, speed will be a factor.

People fear traffic, especially speeding traffic. Even if you are safe, the faster you go the less people will walk and cycle in that environment.

Collective responsibility. Even if you are the best driver in the world, other drivers who lack your observational ability will feel justified in speeding when they see you do it.

Motorcycle Roadcraft opens with an entire chapter on rider attitude and how it contributes to the danger. Your post comes over as one with attitude.
 

Dan_h

Well-Known Member
Location
Reading, UK
Pedal reflectors and pavement cycling do not feature as a significant factor in fatal RTCs.


I believe that pavement cycling actually DOES feature as a statistically significant factor in RTCs, I would go and look up the statistics, but I only have a few minutes of lunch break left and this is probably the wrong thread for it anyway!
 

StuartG

slower but no further
Location
SE London
d yet, I've never had a medium or high-speed accident. In all my years of driving I've had a few sub-5mph collisions that resulted in a scraped panel or dented wing, but not now for many years.
The statistical fallacy. If you had a fatal collision you wouldn't be writing this. If you had a serious collision which you were in part responsible for - you couldn't say this. You somehow believe that you are uniquely put apart from the risk arising from your behaviour.

You have been lucky. We have too. Trading on luck on the road is even more dangerous than in the casino. Doesn't it strike you that the evidence and almost everybody here points to you being wrong?

That's why you should be banned. Your inability to judge risk and your woeful defiance of the evidence you find inconvenient.
 

Parrot of Doom

New Member
He admits to constant speeding but thinks it's safe and denied ever crashing

I do not speed "constant[ly]", and have said no such thing.


Except he's now admitted to crashing "a few times" in his 20 years of driving.

Those accidents were early in my driving career, and were caused by a lack of observation, not an excess of speed.

Of course you would automatically fail the IAM test if you broke the posted limit as a cursory glance at their website shows

Utter, utter nonsense, and spoken by someone who clearly has no knowledge or understanding of the IAM course or its test. On my test, when approaching the M56 junction south onto the A556, which at the time had an immediate 30mph drop in the speed limit onto the slip road, my tester agreed with me that it could be dangerous. I ignored it for a good 500 yards before slowing for the bend. Guess what, no mention of that was made in my assessment, and I passed. If you must know, I was chided for not covering the brake pedal while approaching certain hazards, a flaw in my driving that I quickly fixed.
 
Nope, the Corkery v Carpenter 1951 ruling applied to the use of the word "carriage" this was changed in the Road Traffic Act 1984 to be "motor vehicle" along with a definition of what constitutes a motor vehicle. Also I didn't say that you cant be drunk in charge of a bicycle only that the standard by which this is judged is not the legal alchohol limit but your ability to safely operate it.

Really?

You know the term "carriage" was applied in case law to a bicycle as early as 1879, Taylor Vs. Goodwin under the licensing act 1872.

The main consideration of Corkery Vs. Carpenter 1951 is not infact the use of the word carriage, although it is a rather fitting case for this discussion, but rather that application of the "mischief rule" under the rules of interpretation.

S.30 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 says it is an offence for a person to ride a cycle on a road whilst unfit to ride under the influence of drink or drugs.

It may be argued that one could maintain control of a bicycle whilst under the influence of a drink or drug, however, one could also maintain control of a car whilst under those influences also.

To suggest that only those who are affected to such an extent as to be incapable of having proper control of their chosen vehicle is not applicable.

The intent of the statute is to prevent, via a limit of intoxication, one from being in charge of a vehicle on a road or public place and therfore, by applying the rules of interpretation to the law, as set in the case of Corkery Vs Carpenter 1951, a judge can interpret statute to maintain it's original intent.
 

Buddfox

Veteran
Location
London
Really?

You know the term "carriage" was applied in case law to a bicycle as early as 1879, Taylor Vs. Goodwin under the licensing act 1872.

The main consideration of Corkery Vs. Carpenter 1951 is not infact the use of the word carriage, although it is a rather fitting case for this discussion, but rather that application of the "mischief rule" under the rules of interpretation.

S.30 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 says it is an offence for a person to ride a cycle on a road whilst unfit to ride under the influence of drink or drugs.

It may be argued that one could maintain control of a bicycle whilst under the influence of a drink or drug, however, one could also maintain control of a car whilst under those influences also.

To suggest that only those who are affected to such an extent as to be incapable of having proper control of their chosen vehicle is not applicable.

The intent of the statute is to prevent, via a limit of intoxication, one from being in charge of a vehicle on a road or public place and therfore, by applying the rules of interpretation to the law, as set in the case of Corkery Vs Carpenter 1951, a judge can interpret statute to maintain it's original intent.

I'm not familiar with the detail, but isn't the point that the blood/alcohol limit which is applied to drivers of cars, motorbikes etc. is not applicable to cyclists? i.e. if you're drunk on a bike, they can't ding you if you fail a breathalizer (sp?) test, it's down to the judgement of the officer as to whether you are too drunk to cycle properly.

If it's the former, the police should get out in London on a Friday and Saturday night - drunks on Boris Bikes abound!
 

benb

Evidence based cyclist
Location
Epsom
In which case every single emergency vehicle drives dangerously. It's a nonsense statement of course, and obviously I don't have the same experience or qualifications as a driver of an emergency vehicle, but it is entirely possible to exceed the posted limit and still drive safely. The fact that many, many limits in this country have been reduced does not suddenly make people who still drive on those affected roads at speeds once considered acceptable, "dangerous".

Fatuous claptrap. They are trained to drive at those speeds, and have lights and sirens to warn other road users.
Maybe the limits were reduced precisely because the previous limit was dangerous, did you consider that?

So your solution is to focus not on the primary contributory factor in any accident, but on secondary factors? I'm afraid then that we'll never agree on this. You have your point of view, I respect that, but it's one I don't share.

Accidents will always happen. We should take a broad approach to reducing them, or reducing their impact. I'm focussing on speed here, because that's what the thread is about! If you want to discuss poor observation, which I agree is a significant problem, then that's a subject for another thread. You haven't satisfactorily responded to my point that increase in speed will by definition make an accident both more likely and more serious.


I love how anyone here who proffers an opinion not quite in keeping with what's normally expected becomes open to abuse based on nothing more than conjecture. What a charming community.


I think you'll find that we just have no patience for people who excuse dangerous driving.
Well if you don't like it, you know what to do.
 
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