A chap in Audi this morning

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I do not understand the attitude some people have to indicating and overtaking. When someone overtakes you, gives you a wide berth, and pulls in without indicating left how does that impact upon you in an adverse way? If however they pull back in when rather close but they indicate, does that make you feel happy about it?

The Highway Code states that you should not contemplate manoeuvres if they cause others to alter speed or course. How does using an indicator before an overtake help? If the driver thought following vehicles were themselves about to overtake, then he shouldn't do the overtake. If the safety was going to be marginal, how would a 21 watt flashing bulb help?

I fully agree with indicating before changing lanes on busy roads, because our roads are so crowded that in that situation all of our manoeuvres affect others. However most drivers operate the indicators at the same moment that the steering wheel is turned to change lanes - surely it needs to be indicate, wait, 2, 3,4, change lanes if safe, and not use it like a London bus driver to barge out into other flows of traffic? Most drivers use indicators as though they are some kind of sci-fi forcefield which will prevent anything going wrong, and without any consideration as to whether they benefit other road users.

Most drivers use indicators without any active thought about whether they are of some use in overtaking situations, but routinely neglect to use them in roundabouts where they usually serve a purpose. As a holder of an LGV C+E licence I might well indicate to overtake a cyclist if I were prevented from pulling out early enough to give following vehicles a view of the cyclist down my nearside, and wanted to prevent them from trying to pass me as I was about to move out, but there are few occasions otherwise.

As cyclists do you guys religiously indicate when pulling out to pass parked cars, or do you rely on the fact that no driver in his right mind would expect you to either crash into the back of them, or try to ride over the top? Do you signal left before you pull back to the secondary position? I doubt it very much.
 

Nigeyy

Legendary Member
Something else to consider about indicating.....

Yes, sometimes it's not necessary (would you indicate entering an exit if there are no other cars around?). However, we humans are creatures of habit. The problem with becoming selective on our indicator use is that invariably there will be a time when it is forgotten.

Indicating -even when it could be unnecessary -is, I believe, a good thing. It will make it much less likely that it will be forgotten in other situations and makes it part of a systematic approach.

So two thumbs up for the left hand indication!
 
Why, if it is a good idea to indicate as a matter of habit, does the DSA test not want such a thing? The answer is that the habitual indicator does so without having a decent look around him to see whether anyone benefits from it - he just indicates and performs his manoeuvre (using it as a kind of forcefield). The good driver has a look around to check whether it is necessary - this mode of indicator use has finally filtered through to the DSA after many years of being used by all advanced driving bodies (IAM RoSPA, etc.)
 

rog 1974

New Member
Location
essex england
janm399 said:
This morning was the first time someone in a new-looking Audi performed a textbook overtake in Heaton Moor in Manchester. He even indicated when he pulled back in!
I caught up with him when he stopped near the shops and commented on his good driving; he was really chuffed.


over use of indicators can be a bad thing, you obiously had a considerate driver, but next time when you think a car is indicating left to come back infront of you he might actually be turning left into a side road infront of you causing a brown trouser moment. When i done my motorcycle test a couple of years ago i was told when you are on the move you should only indicate to turn or change lane so indicate to overtake on a dual carraige way if it involves using the outside lane but not on a single carraigeway.
 
OP
OP
janm399

janm399

Veteran
Location
Oxford
@rog_1974: There is a difference between a quick blink from the indicator to let me know that he's pulling back in and continuous blinking, slowing down and veering towards the side road.

In any case, don't get too hung up on his indicating; I was really pleased that he regarded me as traffic and overtook with courtesy and common sense that is sometimes incompatible with dark Audis.
 
I would suggest that you might think differently after someone overtakes you and then decides to take that junction on the left - there usually will not be continuous blinking, slowing down and veering towards the side of the road. What you get is the brakes being slammed on, the indicator operated, and the steering heaved left all simultaneously - it tends to rather concentrate the mind.

I agree that the courtesy & commone sense make it a textbook overtake - therefore the driver's use of the indicator is entirely superfluous.
 

Nigeyy

Legendary Member
Well, obviously it depends on the driver following good practices. And I did say "part of a systematic approach" -meaning you follow a set of procedures (e.g. looking etc). Indicating by itself is not a magic bullet.

However, in my opinion, I'd say people who habitually indicate are more likely to actually look as it is (or should be) part of a system -though of course, not all people do this. Regardless, even if a person doesn't look, indicates and moves, at least you have some small measure of warning to know what's going on as opposed to the person who doesn't look and doesn't indicate and moves......

The problem to me with "The good driver has a look around to check whether it is necessary" is that if there isn't an associated physical system or a habit, I believe you're less likely to get to the point of deciding if something is necessary! And of course implicit in this statement is the fact that the good driver will need to be always correct in determining when it is necessary. Again, even if you determine indicating is not necessary when it is, I'd argue it's better to have indicated than not.

Let's say every morning you get up, and first thing, put the kettle on (even if you're in a rush and don't have time for a cup of tea). However, now let's say you don't do this, but trust yourself to ask the question "do I have time to have a cup of tea?" I'll guarantee the average person will miss out on more cups of tea doing it that way. :biggrin:

For my part in driving, all I can say is that as soon as my hand reaches for the indicator and I feel that stem, I associate that action with moving and it seems to always make me check. I'd much prefer "The good driver has a look around to check and uses their indicator to signal an intent, even if it is not perceived to be necessary to do so". (assuming they can safely continue their intended manoeuvre).

xpc316e said:
Why, if it is a good idea to indicate as a matter of habit, does the DSA test not want such a thing? The answer is that the habitual indicator does so without having a decent look around him to see whether anyone benefits from it - he just indicates and performs his manoeuvre (using it as a kind of forcefield). The good driver has a look around to check whether it is necessary - this mode of indicator use has finally filtered through to the DSA after many years of being used by all advanced driving bodies (IAM RoSPA, etc.)
 
Nigeyy, the kind of driving I am advocating is based on THE system - the system of car control laid out in Roadcraft, the manual for Police drivers. It is the foundation of all modern driving and signals, mirror use, changes of course & position, information gathering, gearchanges, horn use, etc. are all considered systematically.
 

Archie

Errrr.....
Sometimes this board really puzzles me. Nice fuzzy story about a considerate overtake, then we have the driver shouldn't have used his indicators and hypothetical left-hooks due to these dangerous manic indicators.

Where's the <shrugs> icon?
 

purplepolly

New Member
Location
my house
xpc316e said:
How does using an indicator before an overtake help? If the driver thought following vehicles were themselves about to overtake, then he shouldn't do the overtake. If the safety was going to be marginal, how would a 21 watt flashing bulb help?

I always indicate before overtaking a cyclist as the driver behind me might not have noticed the cyclist.

For the same reason I always try to move further to the right before there's an opportunity to overtake a cyclist, this gives the car behind me a better view of the cyclist.
 

Nigeyy

Legendary Member
Well, I did say it was my opinion..... and of course it doesn't mean to say I'm right... or wrong! While RoadCraft (at least the edition many years ago I vaguely remember) is excellent in driving systems, I don't think it took into account human behaviour. Again, just my belief.

FYI: Years back I got qualified and did the RoadCraft thingy on motorcycles. Great thing to do. Learnt a heck of a lot from it and it has influenced my driving immensely.

xpc316e said:
Nigeyy, the kind of driving I am advocating is based on THE system - the system of car control laid out in Roadcraft, the manual for Police drivers. It is the foundation of all modern driving and signals, mirror use, changes of course & position, information gathering, gearchanges, horn use, etc. are all considered systematically.
 

simongrant

Active Member
Arch said:
we don't know if there was a car behind. And my point is, he might have been indicating for the benefit of the cyclist, which shows about 100% more awareness and thoughtfulness than many.

It's like holding a door open for someone. You don't have to, but it's nice when someone does.

Frankly, using indicators at all seems to be going out of fashion...

+1,i indicate all the time eve if there is only me on the road,i think it's one of the best habits to have in driving.This might seem pointless to some people but at least i won't be forgetting to indicate when it really matters.:tongue:
 
purplepolly said:
I always indicate before overtaking a cyclist as the driver behind me might not have noticed the cyclist.


If the driver behind has not seen the cyclist, then on seeing your indicator he's just going to think you're turning right, isn't he? Why not stop him and ask if he's remembered his wife's birthday - he might not have noticed that was coming up either.

Mind you, with so many mindless morons on the road he's probably not going to think anything when he sees your indicator.
 

purplepolly

New Member
Location
my house
xpc316e said:
Why not stop him and ask if he's remembered his wife's birthday - he might not have noticed that was coming up either.
.

My car isn't partially blocking his view of his wifes birthday.

However in the higway code (rule 163 in the latest version) the illustration of a car overtaking a cyclist clearly shows that the car is indicating. It also says to 'signal when it is safe to do so'.
 
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