A good reason to not use clip-in (clipless) pedals [Video warning: Nasty arm break]

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Falco Frank

Veteran
Location
Oup Norf'
Im really shocked about pulling up on pedals not helping :eek:

I must read more on the effect for Recumbent riders.

Personally, I simply dont feel comfortable WITHOUT clipless these days, tried my MTB and 'bent a few times only using Shimano spinning class shoes and actually felt unsafe!
 
Disclaimer: I have never ridden clipless, although I did have Christophe toe-clips and straps on my old upright. Most of us 'horizontalists' who use clipless do so not only for the usual reasons cited by 'uprightists', but also to avoid the dreaded 'leg-suck' phenomenon which can menace riders of recumbent trikes and some of the lower two-wheelers.

As to the effect on pedalling, I think the recumbent experience may have something to tell all cyclists on pedalling technique: first of all, the recumbent posture eliminates the possibility of using your bodyweight on the pedals which simplifies the equation somewhat. Now, my particular bent has a rather less than rigid frame. It has other advantages, so I don't mind, but power transfer is not great. Add in that, bendy frame or not, one can put massive amounts of power down by pushing back against the seat. With those factors in mind consider the following experience: when trying to accelerate in a straight line, if I consciously push on the power stroke, acceleration does ensue, but it is slow and grudging. If, on the other hand, I don't try to consciously push, but just focus on 'unweighting' the non-drive stroke foot, the old dear surges forward as if fitted with an electric motor. From this I conclude that pushing, creates a spiky, uneven power-curve which flexes the frame, delaying power transfer, and incurring frictional losses. Unweighting, on the other hand simply stops your feet from fighting each other, and allows a normal, smooth power curve to have its full effect.

I propose that for the vast majority of cyclists, this is a much more effective way to think about good pedalling technique than stuff about 'pedalling in circles'.

I remain agnostic on clipless, and have done many hundreds of happy bent-miles on flats. I hate wearing any kind of shoes in 'real life', and hard-soled cycling shoes look to me like medieval instruments of torture!:-)

Happy riding, and keep unweighting the non-drive side!
 
Location
Loch side.
Take a look here - https://wattbike.com/uk/blog/post/whats_in_a_pedal_revolution_wattbike_has_the_answer

I notice that on a power meter - my pattern is relatively good (between peanut and elite), when concentrating on my pedal stroke (elite) my average watts go up and can be sustained longer. I also have a slight bias on my right leg due to sciatica on my left side which I am trying to overcome. It could just be that by concentrating on my pedal stroke I subconsciously put in more effort, but then I would expect endurance to suffer which it does not. For me - I find it a lot harder to pedal in circles on flats (the pesky times I forget to take my SPDs to the gym), again here even if I am concentrating, I cannot get the optimal pattern. I do not consciously ever pull up on the pedals at all.

The whole pedaling in circles concept does make sense as we all know it is easier to maintain revolutions than it is to constantly stop/start have to provide extra power etc.

Am I missing anything?
You are missing nothing. The wattbike is incredible for showing you how you can improve your pedal stroke and to illustrate that there is no way you'll do it without being clipped in. I don't think anyone who hasn't tried a session on one of these machines are qualified to dismiss the power benefits of being clipped in.

That doesn't mean you have to be clipped in to enjoy your bike, commute or even ride semi-competitively. Getting full benefit from clipped in isn't easy, it requires a lot of practice and dedication and indeed, measurement and feedback. Getting that perfect peanut-shape on the graph isn't easy.
 
Location
Loch side.
All this pedalling circles, pulling upwards stuff is nonsense. You only pull upwards if you're doing some humungous effort up a short hill....so about 0.01% of time on the bike

The benefit of clipping into the pedals is it guarantees your feet are in the best place on the pedals and they remain there

I disagree in an agreeable kind of way. It isn't really about pulling upwards but by smoothing out the piston-like action of the legs. Most elite cyclists won't show a perfect power circle when measured but most untrained amateurs show distinct pulses of power associated only with about 90 degrees of the full circle. As you train and concentrate on the stroke to make it longer, the 90 degree pulse stretches towards 180 degrees and the feeling is one of powerfully wiping your foot on a mat just after the initial power pulse. The result over two legs is a more even stroke. This becomes more and more important as your cadence goes up and you want to develop a fast leg speed for sprinting. On a fixie, the lack of this skill presents as a rider bouncing wildly on the saddle. This is because the resting leg isn't relaxing quickly enough and power from the working leg is used to bounce the rider upwards.
A gadget called a Power Crank that was popular some years ago demonstrated some pedaling inefficiencies quite nicely. It had some sort of ratchet in the crank that would fold and give way if your one leg was pushing the other one up. In other words, if you weren't pulling whilst pushing and actually using the pushing leg to raise the non-pushing leg, it would alert you. Whether this did anything useful other than to demonstrate that your one leg always gets a bit of a free ride on the up stroke is open to debate, but it did show that the "resting" leg relies on the other one to push it up.
 

Citius

Guest
Wattbike uses a single downstream measurement of pedal forces, so is not able to provide independent or accurate left/right leg data. In other words, it's not giving you data which is anything like as reliable as you think it is, in this particular context. Certainly not reliable enough to make assumptions on pedal stroke technique and 'pulling up'...

As a overall power measurement devicde, it's as good as any other. But don't take the left/right leg stuff too seriously, because the device only guesses it.
 

Citius

Guest
I disagree in an agreeable kind of way. It isn't really about pulling upwards but by smoothing out the piston-like action of the legs. Most elite cyclists won't show a perfect power circle when measured but most untrained amateurs show distinct pulses of power associated only with about 90 degrees of the full circle. As you train and concentrate on the stroke to make it longer, the 90 degree pulse stretches towards 180 degrees and the feeling is one of powerfully wiping your foot on a mat just after the initial power pulse. The result over two legs is a more even stroke. This becomes more and more important as your cadence goes up and you want to develop a fast leg speed for sprinting. On a fixie, the lack of this skill presents as a rider bouncing wildly on the saddle. This is because the resting leg isn't relaxing quickly enough and power from the working leg is used to bounce the rider upwards.

YS - I'm going to have to disagree with you here (assuming I've understood you correctly!). The studies I linked to show that elite-level cyclists actually push more on the downstroke and less on the upstroke than any other level of rider. In other words, they're faster because they pedal harder, not because they have some mastered some mystical pedal technique.
 
Location
Loch side.
YS - I'm going to have to disagree with you here (assuming I've understood you correctly!). The studies I linked to show that elite-level cyclists actually push more on the downstroke and less on the upstroke than any other level of rider. In other words, they're faster because they pedal harder, not because they have some mastered some mystical pedal technique.
I don't think we differ. They certainly don't pull as hard as they push, but if you look at their power graphs (do try and find a simulation online for the Wattbike system's graphs) their power strokes is longer that yours and mine. We pulse up and down and nothing in-between. They pulse up and down, but have a longer lead-up to the highest point in the stroke. If you can imagine it on a graph, our strokes would be two sharp spikes per crank revolution, theirs two sine waves which overlap. Imagine the notion of wiping your feet rather than stomping on the mat.
 
Location
Loch side.
Wattbike uses a single downstream measurement of pedal forces, so is not able to provide independent or accurate left/right leg data. In other words, it's not giving you data which is anything like as reliable as you think it is, in this particular context. Certainly not reliable enough to make assumptions on pedal stroke technique and 'pulling up'...

As a overall power measurement devicde, it's as good as any other. But don't take the left/right leg stuff too seriously, because the device only guesses it.
Yes, it guesses it but your brain quickly tells you which graph is which. All you have to do is relax the one leg and you'll see a change in the graph that corresponds with the leg. We need no more accuracy than a good guess. After all (joking here), it is always at least half right.
 

Citius

Guest
Certainly you'll see a change if you alter your pedal action, but the left/right graphs are not reliable accounts of what is happening, because left/right leg data is not being measured independently. In other words, the graphs are nothing more than just pretty pics...
 

Citius

Guest
YS - the point is that Wattbike measures force downstream from the pedals and only knows the location/speed of the cranks twice in every 360deg rotation. The rest is just guesswork. It is not measuring crank force independently, so the graphs are meaningless from a training analysis perspective.

There's no question that the Wattbike gives you two graphs (one per leg) - but the data is gives you is not worth a jot, as it is not derived from a truly independent measurement. The Wattbike is a great tool for many things, but it doesn't give you independent pedal stroke analysis in the way you think it does. Plenty of discussion over on BR and other forums, training blogs, etc, about this.

Interesting link here: http://alex-cycle.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/left-right-out-of-balance.html
 
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