Advice on rewiring a house?

[Night Train]

my speciality .

ideally 1 socket for each appliance so if you have games consoles DVD Sky etc by the TV you want at least 3 twin sockets behind the TV.
kitchen sockets are hard to decide without seeing a basic plan but we have 5 twin sockets in a galley kitchen and i wish I had put in more
minimum I would wire on a rewire is
1 ring for kitchen general sockets
1 ring for kitchen white goods
1 ring for downstairs
1 ring upstairs
1 lighting circuit down
1 lighting circuit up
Central heating
immersion
Cooker
get a smoke detector circuit wired at same time and get lithium battery interconnected smoke alarms. will put about £200 on the price
split dual RCD board

IET have a guide in the onsite guide and if you PM me an email address i can get the info to you.

MAKE SURE THE GUY IS PART P REGISTERED. as much as i hate advising you to as it is part of building regulations.

This is the sort of starting point I would use.
I'd add a third lighting circuit for the hall, stairs and other non room areas. Also one for any external lighting if needed.

Another point is this.
I used to install a whole load of sockets behind the TV area. I don't any more. All the entertainment equipment, if it is used in the same place doesn't draw that much current. If there isn't too much of it then I would have an extension lead fitted to the back of the TV cabinet and then everything plugs into that. The lead then plugs into one wall socket. I do likewise for computer workstations as it makes it easy to switch everything off in one go.

In my kitchen I have two double sockets per meter of work top in addition to switched circuits for the appliances and a lighting circuit for the under unit lighting.

In rooms in general I have a socket in each corner and in the middle of long walls but placed to suit furniture placement. The bedroom, for example, has two sockets on the bedhead wall, one on each side of the bed.

Don't forget local and task lighting for the bike repair area and a couple of sockets for the power tool charging.

If you have a driveway or garage then maybe a vehicle charging point, or at least a conduit for ease of later installation.

 

[Rohloff_Brompton_Rider]

depends which way you want to read the papers for which is better. both have advantages and disadvantages. again , a competent electrician will know about balancing the legs to ensure Kirchoff doesn'y bite yer bum . personally i think a ring in domestics is far better. commercial installs then radials definitley.

lectrics...lectrics whether in domestic or ind/comm...interesting. but i employed 14 sparks and i believe in KISS, so radials were all i did and do, i like evidence based practice over traditionalism.

 

[subaqua]

This is the sort of starting point I would use.
I'd add a third lighting circuit for the hall, stairs and other non room areas. Also one for any external lighting if needed.

Another point is this.
I used to install a whole load of sockets behind the TV area. I don't any more. All the entertainment equipment, if it is used in the same place doesn't draw that much current. If there isn't too much of it then I would have an extension lead fitted to the back of the TV cabinet and then everything plugs into that. The lead then plugs into one wall socket. I do likewise for computer workstations as it makes it easy to switch everything off in one go.

In my kitchen I have two double sockets per meter of work top in addition to switched circuits for the appliances and a lighting circuit for the under unit lighting.

In rooms in general I have a socket in each corner and in the middle of long walls but placed to suit furniture placement. The bedroom, for example, has two sockets on the bedhead wall, one on each side of the bed.

Don't forget local and task lighting for the bike repair area and a couple of sockets for the power tool charging.

If you have a driveway or garage then maybe a vehicle charging point, or at least a conduit for ease of later installation.

have a google on the elec safety council website for the test results on 4 gang trailing leads when subjected to loads significantly less than what it takes to rupture a 13A fuse. thats why I put 1 socket for each appliance.

Dell will post a prope reply to your question in the morning. am wined up at moment and thinking is getting a little more difficlut

 

[Night Train]

have a google on the elec safety council website for the test results on 4 gang trailing leads when subjected to loads significantly less than what it takes to rupture a 13A fuse. thats why I put 1 socket for each appliance.

Cheers for that, things have moved on considerably then.
We used to to the one socket per appliance but changed to a good quality extension lead to plug in a TV, video, DVD into. Same for PC, monitor, printer, scanner. We would check the loads and often they were tiny.
Glad to see good practice has moved back to what we used to do back in the early 80s.

Only thing is, you could end up with wall to wall sockets given the number of electrical appliances people have nowadays!

 

[subaqua]

Cheers for that, things have moved on considerably then.
We used to to the one socket per appliance but changed to a good quality extension lead to plug in a TV, video, DVD into. Same for PC, monitor, printer, scanner. We would check the loads and often they were tiny.
Glad to see good practice has moved back to what we used to do back in the early 80s.

Only thing is, you could end up with wall to wall sockets given the number of electrical appliances people have nowadays!

thats the only downside , is the lack of space. one thing i see a lot in luxury kitchens is a remote grid switch assembly with a 32A ring in looped across the incoming terminals of the 20A DP switches with the 20A DP switches controlling low level sockets. I far prefer a local 13A FCU local to the appliance and labelled (engraved) with what it does. but somebody realised 20A DP switches are cheaper than a FCU .

in answer to Dells question.

cross connections between rings meaning overcurrent protection ends up in the realms of 64A !! not good for an overloaded cable. complex to install in some installations, and may be multiple sparks installing same ring
ring ends ending up at different Distribution boards. validating installs in one london hospital we found one end of a ring in a non essential board and one in a essential board. the implications there were serious. this was an install from the 70s and the 15th edition regs did put detailed testing instructions in that version.
somtimes the socket will be a dedicated circuit so the cost of a ring is not practical. 50m of 4.0mm is cheaper than 100m of 2.5.
a lot of radial circuits will be the same size conductor so when bulk buying it helps drive cable costs down. for domestic installers its not easy to store 20Km of cable. domestic installs tend to be done in twin and earth not singles so you don't end up with neutrals running a different way to the phase as can happen in conduit installs.

most commercial installs use metal containment so the cpc can be ditched as a cost measure and the metal containment used as the cpc. sadly a lot of consultants don't get this and insist on a cpc being installed which will never see an amp in its life, well it possibly will as the cable can be determined to be the high integrity earthing conductor required for IT equipment.
generally there is enough room for larger distribution boards in commercial installs so you can put more radials in , unless the architect is a sadist who likes to put electricians (and to be fair, mech services) in small spaces. several boards here have had the front door cut in half and a piano hinge installed to enable it to be opened when fitted to the DB.

the IET makes no recomendations over ring or radials and even has a line that states other circuit arrangements are not precluded as long as they have been designed in accordance with the regs. i.e. meet volt drop requirements and maximum Zs

i could go on and write a dissertation about the advantages and disadvantages of ring mains but its been done . http://www.gadsolutions.biz/electrical-services/ring-main-good--bad-

 

[subaqua]

lectrics...lectrics whether in domestic or ind/comm...interesting. but i employed 14 sparks and i believe in KISS, so radials were all i did and do, i like evidence based practice over traditionalism.

give me the evidence that radials are better. if installed properly there are no advantages . you don't need to be millimetre perfect for balanced legs on a ring.

 

[Rohloff_Brompton_Rider]

give me the evidence that radials are better. if installed properly there are no advantages . you don't need to be millimetre perfect for balanced legs on a ring.

like i said, the iee published a paper, it's in the archives. i didn't say they were better (or i don't think i did), just a preferable viable option, less to go wrong; with diy, non competent pro's and appliances (if a washer element is going down it can draw more down one leg, for example). why so defensive? it's well documented and the biggest club (niceic) has adopted it as preferred practice in their manual (well the last time i looked they had), i'm not having a go, i agree rings are perfectly fine if done correctly. but +20 years experience of working in rented accomodations and council house contracts has learnt me, in the real world rings are the bain of con and bonds (con unit upgrades) and my company literally did tens of thousands of them. it was always a nice surprise (and an early knock off) if the ring tested out as good.

if you feel that i've been having a go at your work, then please accept my apology, it was not my intention.

 

[subaqua]

like i said, the iee published a paper, it's in the archives. i didn't say they were better (or i don't think i did), just a preferable viable option, less to go wrong; with diy, non competent pro's and appliances (if a washer element is going down it can draw more down one leg, for example). why so defensive? it's well documented and the biggest club (niceic) has adopted it as preferred practice in their manual (well the last time i looked they had), i'm not having a go, i agree rings are perfectly fine if done correctly. but +20 years experience of working in rented accomodations and council house contracts has learnt me, in the real world rings are the bain of con and bonds (con unit upgrades) and my company literally did tens of thousands of them. it was always a nice surprise (and an early knock off) if the ring tested out as good.

if you feel that i've been having a go at your work, then please accept my apology, it was not my intention.

ah the good old consumer unit "upgrade" favoured by so many local authorities as a good way to show improving housing stock. I hated doing them . 1 hour to change the unit (4 way) and 7 hours finding all the outlets to eanble you to do a proper test on the ring. moving safas and the cockroaches moving it back for you. :shudders: properties where you wipe your feet on the way out.

thankfully they were the minority but they are the ones you remember. I had a good trawl of the archives this morning and haven't found anything,yet.

if a washer element is going they generally don't pull a huge current for long , the withstand of the cable wil cope with that. remember the operating temperature of the cable , if its opersating lower than that the current rating goes up , its all in your correction factors. I can't ever recall having a cable running at 70 degrees and most if not all houses are not at 30 degrees ambient.

 

[subaqua]

If you're doing a big rewiring job, it's a good idea to get wired for ethernet as well at the same time. It doesn't add much to the costs and it's great not having to rely on wireless conections for multimedia stuff. I would at least make sure I have wiring from the router to the telly, the hifi, and anywhere you know you'll have a static PC.

good call. wish i had done this years ago but when i refurbed downstairs we were on windows 98 , networks were for big business and internet/email was through a 9600 modem

 

[Crackle]

If you're doing a big rewiring job, it's a good idea to get wired for ethernet as well at the same time. It doesn't add much to the costs and it's great not having to rely on wireless conections for multimedia stuff. I would at least make sure I have wiring from the router to the telly, the hifi, and anywhere you know you'll have a static PC.

But, the modern generation of power line adaptors in conjunction with new wiring, are pretty damn good and cheaper than wiring, plus you don't have to know where your hub is going to be and never move it.

 

[Rohloff_Brompton_Rider]

Yes, they are very good and I use them. I have four! But if you're streaming high definition video or you have a Gigabit ethernet setup, you'll be glad you had it hard-wired. And as I said, if the cables are being put in for electricty, it doesn't add much cost to stick ethernet cables in as well.

unfortunately it does cost a lot extra, it's pretty much 30% more work; the class 1 and 2 cables have to be kept totally seperate which entails chopping out for them and their accessory outlets. 2 reasons; 1. the law and 2. if you don't keep them seperate you could end up with emf (interference).

 

[subaqua]

unfortunately it does cost a lot extra, it's pretty much 30% more work; the class 1 and 2 cables have to be kept totally seperate which entails chopping out for them and their accessory outlets. 2 reasons; 1. the law and 2. if you don't keep them seperate you could end up with emf (interference).

which bit of BS7671 is statutory emf is electromotive force , what you are concerned about is Electromagnetic compatibility

not too much of an issue for the drop behind the telly and its not as if you need to put capping on , you don't even need to do that for 230V cables- capping was used to protect against damage by the plasterers tools. upstairs for bedrooms etc then an outlet justa bove skirting usuually means as soon as you gently caress wallop the plaster above the skirting at least 30mm will crumble away.

or you could look at all the Dado trunking in thousands of offices across the city and see what EMC issues they don't have with cables being close to each other at incoming service points.
There are recommendations for separation distance (150mm) but when you look at the power requirements of data centres and how close to the servers and patch panels in data centres mains incomers are then you realise its one more elephant in the room.

 

[Rohloff_Brompton_Rider]

which bit of BS7671 is statutory emf is electromotive force , what you are concerned about is Electromagnetic compatibility

not too much of an issue for the drop behind the telly and its not as if you need to put capping on , you don't even need to do that for 230V cables- capping was used to protect against damage by the plasterers tools. upstairs for bedrooms etc then an outlet justa bove skirting usuually means as soon as you gently caress wallop the plaster above the skirting at least 30mm will crumble away.

or you could look at all the Dado trunking in thousands of offices across the city and see what EMC issues they don't have with cables being close to each other at incoming service points.
There are recommendations for separation distance (150mm) but when you look at the power requirements of data centres and how close to the servers and patch panels in data centres mains incomers are then you realise its one more elephant in the room.

the bit that they will use against you in court, bs7671 is an acops and will be used inconjunction with h&s act 1974. emf IS ec...der. don't you remember your basics?

anyway, this is far too technical and too much like an electricians pissing contest....i'm out...goodbye...

 

[subaqua]

the bit that they will use against you in court, bs7671 is an acops and will be used inconjunction with h&s act 1974. emf IS ec...der. don't you remember your basics?

anyway, this is far too technical and too much like an electricians pissing contest....i'm out...goodbye...

ah right so none of it is actually statutory then.
suggest you read 114.1 ,page 15 if you want it made easy, in the current edition which explains the relationship with current statutory regulations.


it wasn't me that started the pissing contest was it ! I employed 14 sparks was the quote i think. thats sounds like the start of a pissing contest.

 

[MacB]

Oooooooooh, sparks getting sparky...is this a popcorn moment?