ambrosio hubs/cassette?

[yello]

I have Ambrosio wheels on my 2004 Bianchi SL3. Gearing is Campagnolo Mirage & Veloce mix.

I assumed (foolishly it now transpires!) that the cassette was Campag too and bought a new Veloce 9sp cassette. However, it does not fit the freehub splines so I can only but assume that it's a ambrosio cassette and the freehub is not Campag compatible.

Question 1: Can I get a Campag (or compatible) freehub? If so, from where?

As luck would have it (??), I broke a spoke today so that'll have to be replaced and the wheel trued.

Question 2: Would it be judicious to take this opportunity to ditch the Ambrosio hubs (or wheels even) and replace with something newer.

The ambrosio kit is probably budget, it came std on the Bianchi near on 5 years ago. I have no problems with it but I might benefit from a new wheelset. Nothing pricey, something like the Mavic Aksiums et al.

Edit: it would seem that ambrosio cassettes are shimano splined but campag spaced.

 

[MartinC]

Ambrosio make cassettes with Campagnolo sprocket spacing that fit on Shimano hubs. It sounds like the hubs on your wheels have Shimano splined hubs. You either need to replace the cassette with another Ambrosio Campag to Shimano one or change your wheels to ones with Campag hubs. Google for Ambrosio cassettes - several places sell them. Byercycles also sell Evolution cassttes that do the same Campag spacing on Shimano splines job.

 

[yello]

Ambrosio make cassettes with Campagnolo sprocket spacing that fit on Shimano hubs. It sounds like the hubs on your wheels have Shimano splined hubs.

That's my situation exactly.

You either need to replace the cassette with another Ambrosio Campag to Shimano one or change your wheels to ones with Campag hubs. Google for Ambrosio cassettes - several places sell them.

I've only been able to find a 10sp Ambrosio cassette. I've emailed their UK people about a 9sp and about whether it is possible to change the freehub for a Campag compatible. Changing the wheels and/or hubs is an option I'm not ruling out!

Someone on yacf suggests it may be possible to use a 10sp, remove one cog and respace for 9sp.

Byercycles also sell Evolution cassttes that do the same Campag spacing on Shimano splines job.

I'll give Byers a call. I never mind putting money their way!

 

[MartinC]

That's my situation exactly.



I've only been able to find a 10sp Ambrosio cassette. I've emailed their UK people about a 9sp and about whether it is possible to change the freehub for a Campag compatible. Changing the wheels and/or hubs is an option I'm not ruling out!

Someone on yacf suggests it may be possible to use a 10sp, remove one cog and respace for 9sp.



I'll give Byers a call. I never mind putting money their way!

Sorry, didn't realise it was 9 speed. Your options may be limited to the custom spacer ones. Mavic used to make a kit to re-space (roughly - not the sprockets on carriers) an Ultegra 9 speed cassette for Campag so you could use their wheels. Marchisio are expensive so changing wheels may be the best option. The only hubs Campag sell now are the lovely but expensive Record ones but Miche make Campag compatible hubs at £50-60 (Think Wiggle and Parker have them). Ambrosio make Campag compatible hubs too - so you may be able to get a freewheel. Khamsin wheels are cheap and have a reasonable reputation.

 

[yello]

I reckon new hubs or wheels might be calling me! I dislike pfaffing around trying to get bits to make components compatible.

I've just been tinkering and can't see how the freehub can be removed (and no reply as yet from Ambrosio) so I'm not sure if a freehub change is an option. The cassette lockring has 'Miche' stamped on it so I guess it's not an Ambrosio cassette (I didn't know before today that Miche was a component manufacturer!)

Interestingly, I tried to drop an old XT cassette on the freehub and it wouldn't fit! Now I don't know if Shimano have different splines MTB to road or not but it looks like it's not a Shimano compatible freehub either!

 

[MartinC]

Something is wrong here. Miche make 9 and 10 speed cassettes for Campag splined hubs. They can have Campag or Shimano sprockest spacing depending on the spacers used.

I know you can get Ambrosio hubs with Campag splines. Are you sure the Veloce cassette doesn't fit?

 

[MartinC]

Should add this.

As far as splines go it has to be Campag or Shimano. There's really only one kind of Shimano splines (there's some old and obsolete versions which aren't in the picture). 9 speed road and MTB should mix and match pefectly well.

Campag changed their splines went they went from 8 to 9 speed (9 speed splines were much deeper to allow for aluminium freehub bodies). You can't put a 9 (or 10) speed cassette on an 8 speed freehub 'cos it needs deep splines. Putting an 8 speed cassette on a 9 speed ally freehub is a bad idea 'cos the short tabs will cut into the splines.

Compare the cutouts on one of your Miche sprockets with those on one from the Veloce cassette.

Is it possible that Bianchi have used an eight speed freehub and got 9 speed Miche cassettes made from 8 speed sprockets and 9 speed spacers?

 

[yello]

First, thanks for all your help here Martin. You're asking me the right questions, I'm learning along the way as well as getting closer to an answer!

Compare the cutouts on one of your Miche sprockets with those on one from the Veloce cassette.

Done and completely different. The Miche (if it is a Miche) has quite regularly spaced splines, differing only in width. The Veloce is noticeably more varied in widths with, importantly, one spline being 'split level' if that makes sense.

Neither the Veloce or an XT cassette will fit the freehub.

I think you might have hit upon something when you said...

Campag changed their splines went they went from 8 to 9 speed (9 speed splines were much deeper to allow for aluminium freehub bodies

.

The XT cassette looks like it would fit if the splines on the freehub were deeper. The spacings and widths of splines look to be otherwise matching up.

I heard back from Ambrosio UK and they said they don't stock spares for that particular hub because the wheelset was "made by Ambrosio in Italy especially for Bianchi".

So I reckon this is looking like a distinct possibility...

Is it possible that Bianchi have used an eight speed freehub and got 9 speed Miche cassettes made from 8 speed sprockets and 9 speed spacers?

So, I reckon my safest option (both for now and future upgrades) is at least a new hub, if not new wheels (overkill maybe but it's not like I'll not benefit).

If I get new wheels, I don't need anything flash. Mavic Aksiums can be got easily around here for around the €180 mark (€160 off the web), and they seem to get good enough reviews.

A new hub will require some further searching as it'd need to be 28 spoke. They don't seem too common from my cursory glance. I'm tempted to source and get one off the web and learn the art of wheel building myself. (That's in addition to getting new wheels - I just want the bike back on the road!)

 

[SimonC]

Not read thread that closely, but you can use Shimano 9 speed cassettes on Campag 9 speed rear derailleur no problem.

Sprocket spacing is slightly different but not enough to make any difference to gear changes, setting up is easy.

I've got Campag Chorus 9 speed rear mech and Shimano 9 speed cassette on my road bike.

 

[MartinC]

I heard back from Ambrosio UK and they said they don't stock spares for that particular hub because the wheelset was "made by Ambrosio in Italy especially for Bianchi".

Hmmmmm. God know what old stock they used up then! Think you're right, new wheels look like the best option. If they really are Campag 8 speed hubs don't bin them - anyone still running this set up may well appreciate them - put them on ebay as a service to the community. Some other Bianchi owner may want them too.

 

[andy_wrx]

The XT cassette looks like it would fit if the splines on the freehub were deeper. The spacings and widths of splines look to be otherwise matching up.

Yello, have a look at http://www.sheldonbrown.com/dura-ace.html
- go to the section '10 speed and Hollowtech 2'

I reckon if you have the same spline pattern but the splines on the freehub are deeper than the splines in the cassette, that you have an Ambrosio version of a 10sp-only Shimano freehub

And are running a Miche (or Ambrosio ?) cassette with the 10sp Shimano spline pattern/depth but with 9sp Campag-spaced cogs...

 

[MartinC]

Andy, thanks, interesting. The difference in Dura Ace 10 speed hubs passed me by (I can remember some difference with DA back in the days of 7 speed). This looks really likely. God knows how Ambrosio sourced the cassettes then - running Campag 9 speed on Dura Ace style 10 - must've been some custom set up with DA copy sprockets and custom spacers.

Anyway - I think Yello's plan is sound, get rid of the hubs.

 

[andy_wrx]

Well, if the XT cassette won't fit because whilst the spline pattern is the same but the splines are too deep for the cassette, it has to be that.

But it doesn't feel right
- Surosa are selling the Ambrosio Shimano-splined-but-Campag-spaced 10sp cassette with the warning
NOTE: Only compatible with Shimano 8/9/10 speed freehubs, not compatible with Shimano 10s specific freehubs.
http://www.surosa.co.uk/3896/products/Ambrosio_10_Speed_Cassette_Shimano_Freehub_Campag_Spaced.aspx
Now that sounds like a warning to me that this cassette - enabling you to run a Shimano-splined wheel on an otherwise 10sp Campag bike - will only fit on a 8/9/10sp Shimano-splined hub, i.e. not one of these 10sp-only DA hubs.

Assuming that Ambrosio used to make a equivalent 9sp cassette, you'd have thought it was the same ?
...assuming of course it's an Ambrosio cassette...

If it's a Miche cassette (rather than just lockring throwing us a red herring...) then, whilst I've never met one, it sounds like they're made-u pof separate cogs and spacers

Yello - is this cassette just a collection of loose cogs and spacers ?
If it is all held together into a cassette unit, is it held together with rivets or allen bolts ?

- if it is a 10sp Shimano-fit hub, you could perhaps get a Shimano 10sp cassette, pull that apart and take 9 cogs from it, separate them using the Miche spacers and so make-up a new cassette

 

[yello]

And are running a Miche (or Ambrosio ?) cassette with the 10sp Shimano spline pattern/depth but with 9sp Campag-spaced cogs...

I dunno but I think it unlikely (but not impossible) given the year of the bike.... 2004. I'd find it weird that Ambrosio/Bianchi would get the then new technology and whack a 9sp cassette on it. I could try and measure the width of the free hub and see if that tells me anything (Sheldon Brown says 10sp is 37mm whilst 9 - and presumabley 8 - is 35mm).

 

[yello]

Yello - is this cassette just a collection of loose cogs and spacers ?

Yes.

So I reckon the cassette is Shimano splined with Campag spacers.

I'm going to have a closer look at the splines. I also have an old Bontranger hub that I can compare as well, any differences there might help.