Dave 123
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An ineresting last line.....
- Thread starter Dave 123
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martint235
Dog on a bike
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It's his personal view. I think it's a weird situation in some ways. Most people on here loath Armstrong for what he's done to cycling, however to some (not necessarily the same people) Tommy Simpson is a hero. Go figure.
Mr Haematocrit
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I don't loath Armstrong for what he's done to cycling, I loath him for what he did to people who dared challenge his position. The man ruined lives, peoples careers and dreams... Not only is he a cheat but he's also a cold heartless shitbag
I disagree with the article though, I do not think that Armstrong has been unfairly punished for the simple fact that he is not prepared to name others involved and help clean up the sport that he claims to care so much about. If other people involved in his doping are not able to be held accountable then imho Armstrong carries this burden of responsibility along with his silence.
I disagree with the article though, I do not think that Armstrong has been unfairly punished for the simple fact that he is not prepared to name others involved and help clean up the sport that he claims to care so much about. If other people involved in his doping are not able to be held accountable then imho Armstrong carries this burden of responsibility along with his silence.
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Boris Bajic
Guest
With Armstrong, there is a sense in which people choose a line and condemn anyone who goes beyond it.
I'm reminded of a (slightly grubby) story in which a man asks if a woman will sleep with him for £5 million. She agrees without enthusiasm. He then asks whether she would for £50. Disgusted, she says "What do you think I am, a common hooker?" "We've already established that," says the man. "Now we're just negotiating".
Similarly, in cycling it is a matter of where we draw the line. In the 'Lance Armstrong Era', twenty-one riders made the podium of the TdF. Of those, all but one have been banned, have been linked to a major investigation or have since admitted to doping.
Then we look to the winners and well-placed riders in the TdF in the years before Lance: Pantani, Riis, Ullrich, Indurain, Fignon, Roche and so on... One could mention more names, but people would be offended.
The list of winners since Lance gets slightly fraught, as we all have a soft spot for a Cobber who grinds through the ranks and eventually wins after being the bridesmaid so often... and nobody wants to suggest that a British winner has micro-dosed anything to keep him just below a dodgy level.
But we are left with the feeling that whether or not it is now a clean sport at the highest level, cycling has form. Despite this, many of us have loved every moment of every TdF for decades in the pretty certain knowledge that it is dirty. People who act 'horrified' about PEDs in cycling remind me a little of kids who get to tweve and find that WWF wrestling is just theatre for small children.
I still remember with fondness some of the racing in the Armstrong years. Some fans waste no opportunity to pour scorn and invective at every mention of his name and say how they feel betrayed, cheated or let down. They are the real fans, who salute winners who do it by hard work alone. They salute winners like.... ermmm... hang on.... Golly! Well, anyway, they salute the ones who are just jolly good riders. Names to follow... Perhaps.
But they get jolly cross if anyone says a good thing about Armstrong or a bad thing about one of the guys they're sure are clean.
I do think cheats add something to sport. Some of them get found out and attract some vitriol. Some go down as legends. Some get honoured by their country. I like them all.
I'm reminded of a (slightly grubby) story in which a man asks if a woman will sleep with him for £5 million. She agrees without enthusiasm. He then asks whether she would for £50. Disgusted, she says "What do you think I am, a common hooker?" "We've already established that," says the man. "Now we're just negotiating".
Similarly, in cycling it is a matter of where we draw the line. In the 'Lance Armstrong Era', twenty-one riders made the podium of the TdF. Of those, all but one have been banned, have been linked to a major investigation or have since admitted to doping.
Then we look to the winners and well-placed riders in the TdF in the years before Lance: Pantani, Riis, Ullrich, Indurain, Fignon, Roche and so on... One could mention more names, but people would be offended.
The list of winners since Lance gets slightly fraught, as we all have a soft spot for a Cobber who grinds through the ranks and eventually wins after being the bridesmaid so often... and nobody wants to suggest that a British winner has micro-dosed anything to keep him just below a dodgy level.
But we are left with the feeling that whether or not it is now a clean sport at the highest level, cycling has form. Despite this, many of us have loved every moment of every TdF for decades in the pretty certain knowledge that it is dirty. People who act 'horrified' about PEDs in cycling remind me a little of kids who get to tweve and find that WWF wrestling is just theatre for small children.
I still remember with fondness some of the racing in the Armstrong years. Some fans waste no opportunity to pour scorn and invective at every mention of his name and say how they feel betrayed, cheated or let down. They are the real fans, who salute winners who do it by hard work alone. They salute winners like.... ermmm... hang on.... Golly! Well, anyway, they salute the ones who are just jolly good riders. Names to follow... Perhaps.
But they get jolly cross if anyone says a good thing about Armstrong or a bad thing about one of the guys they're sure are clean.
I do think cheats add something to sport. Some of them get found out and attract some vitriol. Some go down as legends. Some get honoured by their country. I like them all.
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You're comparing someone who popped a couple of amphetamines before a race with a guy who systematically used EPO, blood transfusions, testosterone, corticosteroids etc and forced team mates to do the same, threatened, bullied and intimidated people into silence who tried to speak out against him, more or less wrecked Greg Lemond's bike business, publicly accused Emma O'Reilly of being a prostitute and an alcoholic, texted threatening messages to Tyler Hamilton's wife and called Betsy Andreu a fat, ugly liar and that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Go figure.
martint235
Dog on a bike
- Location
- Welling
No I'm comparing two people who cheated to the maximum level available in their respective eras. They both cheated and yet one is treated as a hero. I accept that LA also took it beyond mere cheating by the intimidating people etc but at the end of the day they are both cheats. How come Simpson never seems to be vilified as such? Rather he is treated as some kind of romantic hero Brit done good as opposed to someone who cheated to such an extent that it cost him his life.
Mr Haematocrit
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I can't speak for others but for me Simpson was a doper and cheat but im not aware of stories of him bullying, intimidating and destroying other peoples lives.
Armstrong I loathe as a man, as a human being, the manner in which he intimidated and treated others such as Filppo Simeoni, Greg LeMond and Emma O'Reilly was really not acceptable, it was nothing short of wicked.
Can't say I have to much interest in the doping story and I would still be a Cavendish fan if he ever failed a test (which I doubt he will ever do) but I am genuinely glad to see a shitbag like Armstrong get a little bit of Karma
Anyway.. you can't trust him, He even lied about his name. His birth certificate states "Lance Edward Gunderson"
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