Annual Christmas grumble

[Markymark]

...and, of course, the religious reason is why we celebrate Christmas (the clue's in the name). It might not be the reason we have a party in mid-winter. There's a decent article looking reasonably dispassionately at the historical evidence and squishing this suggestion:



here: https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org...w-testament/how-december-25-became-christmas/

TL;DR? The feast of the nativity on December 25th is well attested at a time when Christianity wouldn't have wanted to associate itself with an existing solstice festival, whose date is apparently less well attested. An alternative explanation to do with celebrating the birth 9 months after the conception exists and is more credible given what we know about the mind of late antiquity.

And you've cherry-picked the least favourable statistic - 60% assert a Christian identity, and as anyone associated with Christianity will tell you going to church is not the marker of a Christian identity these days (if it ever was). Oh, and "many hundred" is 300 at most - Christmas (as I said, the clue's in the name) is a Christian festival whose date was settled by the early 4th century CE. Midwinter parties no doubt go back a lot further, and many of the traditions now associated with Christmas have no doubt been borrowed, but Christmas (the clue's in the name) is inescapably Christian.

May have been too long for you to read, but I just did. It states as it's main reason for it not enveloping pagan festivals as because in Christian scripts there's no mention of it. Hardly a smoking gun.

 

[srw]

May have been too long for you to read, but I just did. It states as it's main reason for it not enveloping pagan festivals as because in Christian scripts there's no mention of it. Hardly a smoking gun.

I think you're misunderstanding the piece (yes, I did read it - which is how I was able to provide a short summary). The article says that there is no evidence for your claim, and gives reasons why it's implausible.

"But we don’t have evidence of Christians adopting pagan festivals in the third century, at which point dates for Christmas were established. Thus, it seems unlikely that the date was simply selected to correspond with pagan solar festivals."

But there is evidence for an alternative explanation, and the article gives reasons why it's plausible.

"This idea appears in an anonymous Christian treatise titled On Solstices and Equinoxes, which appears to come from fourth-century North Africa. The treatise states: “Therefore our Lord was conceived on the eighth of the kalends of April in the month of March [March 25], which is the day of the passion of the Lord and of his conception. For on that day he was conceived on the same he suffered.”11 Based on this, the treatise dates Jesus’ birth to the winter solstice."

That's the nature of historical debate - it's about careful weighing of scrappy evidence. And I'm afraid that if I'm looking for evidence about the thoughts of early Christians it's in early Christian scripts that I'll go looking. Just like I'd go looking on a cycling forum today for evidence about the thoughts of modern cyclists.

[edit]
And I'm afraid that if I'm looking for the current historical thinking on the origins of a particular Christian festival I'm more likely to find it in an article written by a historian of early Christianity than in an article not written by a historian. Call me old-fashioned, but I quite like reading what the experts think.

 

[petek]

As any fule knoe-
Baby Jesus was definitely born at Christmas.
Look at the historical context.
Crib.
Stable.
People bringing him Christmas prezzies.
Carol singing ( done by angels).
Easter eggs on sale in Bethlehem Tesco.
Deffo Christmas time that was.

 

[User482]

Unlike, say @Markymark?

Here's the mid-term trend from the BSAS (it's an old graph because wikipedia's not updated it recently):
View attachment 382559

To be honest, I'm less bothered about numbers, and more interested in the fact that bad history, and bad interpretation of statistics now appears to be an accepted line of argument. I'm also interested because there's a particular strand of atheism which seems to be incredibly defensive at the same time as being actively proselytising. It's particularly interesting because it's often found amongst socially liberal, egalitarian, broadly left-wing people - who share many of the same outlooks on what is good for society as a very large and important strand of thinking among people with religious belief.

If you're concerned about cherry picking and bad interpretation of statistics, then stop doing it!

Here's a more recent version of the graph you quoted:

That feels like a significant shift given the timeframe.

 

[pawl]

I find the garden centres the worst culprits round this neck of the wood It all kicks off mid October. May all their pine needles drop prematurely

 

[petek]

I find the garden centres the worst culprits round this neck of the wood It all kicks off mid October. May all their plane needles drop prematurely.

Thing is though they do shift stock.
Ours has had Christmas stuff in since late September and folk are buying it.
I bought some John Innes Number 3 compost in there a few weeks back and the bag had Christmasy artwork.
No idea why. Not exactly Christmas present material is compost really.

 

[tony111]

The Christmas run-up should start when they make that advent candle thingy out of coat hangers on Blue Peter, and not before.

 

[Randomnerd]

Jeezus; threads about Christmas this early....

 

[Speicher]

That is NOT true ... Not only do I not feel better because of it, I know a lot of other who don't either!

When it started as a celebration, it would probably have just been two day's preparation, and one or two days' celebration. You could more easily hide away from all that. I would still visit you with pork buttie, or its equivalent.

 

[Salad Dodger]

Our ukulele band had its first "Christmas gig planning meeting" of 2017 yesterday. Just as well because we mullered the Christmas songs so badly in rehearsal that we will need all of the next 3 weeks, before our first Christmas gig, to get them anywhere near right.

And as one of our band members hates Christmas with a passion, we had plenty of Christmas grumbles to listen to!

 

[jayonabike]

Well this thread hasn’t gone the way the OP intended......


Personally I love Christmas and the run up to it. Working for Royal Mail I certainly know that it’s on its way, the mail volume is picking up already.
Last week the wife made the Christmas cake, Christmas pudding and we both made some chutney. Mine was a chilli chutney made with Komodo Dragon chillis, red finger chillis and peppers. Can’t wait to try a bit with some cold ham and turkey.

 

[stephec]

Even though I don't like all the nonsense that goes with it, I can't wait for Christmas.

I finish work on 19/12/17 and don't go back in until 02/01/18.

 

[classic33]

Bleeding Brexit Innit

That's only last year, used to have two foot of snow.

 

[ColinJ]

When it started as a celebration, it would probably have just been two day's preparation, and one or two days' celebration. You could more easily hide away from all that. I would still visit you with pork buttie, or its equivalent.

But ... I'm veggie!

I've got about 3 days worth of activities planned including walks and bike rides, subject to weather. As for the rest - pass!

 

[classic33]

Why is it that the only christmas spirit some will ever see, is care of a bottle or a can?